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#46
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
"Eric Stevens" wrote in message
... it also applies to more than just audio. there was a double-blind test with wine, where expert wine tasters couldn't identify the cheap wines from the expensive ones, including when one of the 'red wines' was white wine + food colouring. LOL. It takes guts to perpetrate that sort of test on a wine buff. And they got away with it :-) If we accept your argument then double-blind tests are a waste of time under any circumstances we are discussing with you. In fact, and for example, practically nobody could fail to detect the difference between my PC speakers and the Arcam DAC feeding the Quad amplifier and Z4 speakers with their ribbon tweeters. The difference between the two DACs is not as great but it is quite audible. I read of an interesting study that was done comparing vinyl against CD. Audiophiles could tell that difference, which doesn't surprise me. Many of them preferred the "vinyl sound". Fair enough. But then they introduced a third factor: live sound (eg a radio broadcast of a concert) with no recording, whether on tape, vinyl or CD. And the audiophiles thought it was a CD, and hated it. So what some audiophiles prefer is the modifications that are made to "fit" the recording onto vinyl: the reduced dynamic range and the modified frequency response when writing to disc and converse process when playing back - that other forms of recording are too faithful and less "warm". |
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#47
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
On 9/20/2018 5:45 AM, NY wrote:
I read of an interesting study that was done comparing vinyl against CD. Audiophiles could tell that difference, which doesn't surprise me. Many of them preferred the "vinyl sound". Fair enough. My current MP3 collection includes many vinyl records I had as a teenager that I have rerecorded in various formats as they evolved over the years. Besides the vinyl sound, I actually like the groove scratch sound made as the original record turned. Perhaps more nostalgia than frequency response. But then they introduced a third factor: live sound (eg a radio broadcast of a concert) with no recording, whether on tape, vinyl or CD. And the audiophiles thought it was a CD, and hated it. Yep, many hated those cold sounding CDs when they came out. That's why some continued to use their tube amps to "warm up" the music. So what some audiophiles prefer is the modifications that are made to "fit" the recording onto vinyl: the reduced dynamic range and the modified frequency response when writing to disc and converse process when playing back - that other forms of recording are too faithful and less "warm". Bottom line: Sound is a SUBJECTIVE thing. What sounds good to one may not sound as good to another. And also there is the EAR. As I joked in my last post, many here are somewhat aged and their hearing response has changed. I will admit mine has. That's why I use an equalizer. I adjust it until the music sounds good TO ME. Another advantage of old ears is that a $20 pair of headphones sounds good enough FOR ME... YMMV. |
#48
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
In article , NY
wrote: it also applies to more than just audio. there was a double-blind test with wine, where expert wine tasters couldn't identify the cheap wines from the expensive ones, including when one of the 'red wines' was white wine + food colouring. LOL. It takes guts to perpetrate that sort of test on a wine buff. And they got away with it :-) found it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rahimka...der-yourself-a n-expert-think-again/ "This was nicely demonstrated in a mischievous 2001 experiment led by Frédéric Brochet at the University of Bordeaux,² writes Jonah Lehrer. ³In the first test, Brochet invited fifty-seven wine experts and asked them to give their impressions of what looked like two glasses of red and white wine. The wines were actually the same white wine, one of which had been tinted red with food coloring. But that didn¹t stop the experts from describing the ³red² wine in language typically used to describe red wines. One expert praised its ³jamminess,² while another enjoyed its ³crushed red fruit.² In fact, the look of a label or the price on the bottle profoundly influence the tasting experience. Said Lehrer: ³The second test Brochet conducted was even more damning. He took a middling Bordeaux and served it in two different bottles. One bottle bore the label of a fancy grand cru, the other of an ordinary*vin de table. Although they were being served the exact same wine, the experts gave the bottles nearly opposite descriptions. The grand cru was summarized as being ³agreeable,² ³woody,² ³complex,² ³balanced,² and ³rounded,² while the most popular adjectives for the*vin de table*included ³weak,² ³short,² ³light,² ³flat,² and ³faulty.² If we accept your argument then double-blind tests are a waste of time under any circumstances we are discussing with you. In fact, and for example, practically nobody could fail to detect the difference between my PC speakers and the Arcam DAC feeding the Quad amplifier and Z4 speakers with their ribbon tweeters. The difference between the two DACs is not as great but it is quite audible. I read of an interesting study that was done comparing vinyl against CD. Audiophiles could tell that difference, which doesn't surprise me. Many of them preferred the "vinyl sound". Fair enough. cds do sound different, not because they're cds, but because they're mastered differently. they're also capable of much higher quality and can reproduce sounds vinyl cannot. put another way, a cd can sound *exactly* like a vinyl record (if that's what one prefers), or it can sound much better. But then they introduced a third factor: live sound (eg a radio broadcast of a concert) with no recording, whether on tape, vinyl or CD. And the audiophiles thought it was a CD, and hated it. So what some audiophiles prefer is the modifications that are made to "fit" the recording onto vinyl: the reduced dynamic range and the modified frequency response when writing to disc and converse process when playing back - that other forms of recording are too faithful and less "warm". vinyl records add distortion, which is the 'warmth' that they claim to hear. that distortion can also be added to a cd, or left out for those who want accurate sounds. |
#49
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
In article , 123456789
wrote: But then they introduced a third factor: live sound (eg a radio broadcast of a concert) with no recording, whether on tape, vinyl or CD. And the audiophiles thought it was a CD, and hated it. Yep, many hated those cold sounding CDs when they came out. that was a production issue, not that it was a cd. That's why some continued to use their tube amps to "warm up" the music. which adds distortion, something which can be added digitally. no need for a tube amp. |
#50
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote: In my search I found DACs ranging in price fro about $5(!) to $26,000. I finished up paying about $500. any of which can be used with a digital headphone jack and whatever headphones/speakers you want. not that there is an audible difference, except perhaps the $5 one. Lots of people think you are wrong. I certainly do. even more do not. some might *think* they can hear a difference, but they can't. objective double-blind tests consistently show that people do no better than chance. in other words, they're guessing. You have used that argument several times, applied to different aspects of audio. I bet you can't cite an example relating to DACs on high level equipment. numerous times, because it's true. people *think* they can hear a difference, but when put to the test, they can't. they do no better than chance. The example you originally quoted was in a different context altogether. nope it also applies to more than just audio. there was a double-blind test with wine, where expert wine tasters couldn't identify the cheap wines from the expensive ones, including when one of the 'red wines' was white wine + food colouring. If we accept your argument then double-blind tests are a waste of time under any circumstances we are discussing with you. nonsense. objective double-blind tests are never a waste of time, except for those who have something to hide. if one product really is better than another product, an objective double-bind test will show it. it's exactly what someone pushing a 'better product' would want. In fact, and for example, practically nobody could fail to detect the difference between my PC speakers and the Arcam DAC feeding the Quad amplifier and Z4 speakers with their ribbon tweeters. some will and some won't. others won't care. so what? The difference between the two DACs is not as great but it is quite audible. then something is wrong with at least one of them. |
#51
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
On 9/19/2018 6:25 AM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 21:59:08 -0400, nospam wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: your comments support the transition to digital headphone jacks. My comment was derived from the thought of the kind of DAC a manufacturer would install in a pair of ear buds. it doesn't matter, since the quality of the earbuds is the limiting factor, not the dac. They must be acoustically lousy! Mr. Stevens-let me take a dump in your pie hole. |
#52
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
On 9/20/2018 12:17 PM, nospam wrote:
123456789 wrote: many hated those cold sounding CDs when they came out. that was a production issue, not that it was a cd. You're big on double blind tests, right? "My demonstrations were "blind" tests for them; I didn't identify which was which, I would just ask them to tell me which one, "A" or "B," sounded better. Most guessed the LP. The turntable and CD player were usually around the same price. My turntable sales remained strong through the 1980s, but CD players' sales gained ground as the years went by." https://www.cnet.com/news/it-was-30-...began-to-play/ That's why some continued to use their tube amps to "warm up" the music. which adds distortion Music is a SUBJECTIVE thing. Distortion can be a good thing if people enjoy it. How about that distorted (screeching) electronic guitar music that's so popular? As you can tell I don't particularly enjoy it, but millions do... something which can be added digitally. no need for a tube amp. No need NOT TO HAVE a tube amp, turntable, and LPs in a nice piece of furniture if that's the way one wants to enjoy their music. Some people enjoy driving classic cars also. |
#53
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
In article , 123456789
wrote: many hated those cold sounding CDs when they came out. that was a production issue, not that it was a cd. You're big on double blind tests, right? "My demonstrations were "blind" tests for them; I didn't identify which was which, I would just ask them to tell me which one, "A" or "B," sounded better. Most guessed the LP. The turntable and CD player were usually around the same price. My turntable sales remained strong through the 1980s, but CD players' sales gained ground as the years went by." https://www.cnet.com/news/it-was-30-...began-to-play/ audio salespeople are not unbiased and rarely do a proper double-blind test. for example, if the volumes weren't exactly matched, then the test is void. louder usually sounds better, even if it's only slightly. there's also this: The other factor in LPs favor was price, CDs sold for twice as much as LPs, and that price differential lasted for a long time. That's why some continued to use their tube amps to "warm up" the music. which adds distortion Music is a SUBJECTIVE thing. Distortion can be a good thing if people enjoy it. How about that distorted (screeching) electronic guitar music that's so popular? As you can tell I don't particularly enjoy it, but millions do... i didn't say it's bad. i said that the 'warmth' is distortion, which can be added if that's what a person wants. what can't be done is removing distortion that's already there. the damage has been done. vinyl can't ever have the dynamic range or frequency response of cds, but cds can be limited to mimic vinyl. something which can be added digitally. no need for a tube amp. No need NOT TO HAVE a tube amp, turntable, and LPs in a nice piece of furniture if that's the way one wants to enjoy their music. Some people enjoy driving classic cars also. if someone is buying a turntable or tube amp as a piece of furniture, then sound quality is not their priority. |
#54
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
On 9/20/2018 3:21 PM, nospam wrote:
audio salespeople...rarely do a proper double-blind test. I would say salespeople rarely do a double blind test, PERIOD. The other factor in LPs favor was price The complaints most voiced were sound, not price. 'warmth' is distortion, which can be added if that's what a person wants. 'Warmth' is distortion which can also be added with a tube amp, IF THAT'S WHAT A PERSON WANTS. what can't be done is removing distortion that's already there. My local big box and book stores are selling LP vinyl records. Some permanently distorted people still out there... cds can be limited to mimic vinyl. Why would anyone want to make a CD mimic vinyl? if someone is buying a turntable or tube amp as a piece of furniture, then sound quality is not their priority. Not necessarily. Lots of people like nice furniture surrounding their solid state CD stereos too. |
#55
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:45:21 +0100, "NY" wrote:
"Eric Stevens" wrote in message .. . it also applies to more than just audio. there was a double-blind test with wine, where expert wine tasters couldn't identify the cheap wines from the expensive ones, including when one of the 'red wines' was white wine + food colouring. LOL. It takes guts to perpetrate that sort of test on a wine buff. And they got away with it :-) If we accept your argument then double-blind tests are a waste of time under any circumstances we are discussing with you. In fact, and for example, practically nobody could fail to detect the difference between my PC speakers and the Arcam DAC feeding the Quad amplifier and Z4 speakers with their ribbon tweeters. The difference between the two DACs is not as great but it is quite audible. I read of an interesting study that was done comparing vinyl against CD. Audiophiles could tell that difference, which doesn't surprise me. Many of them preferred the "vinyl sound". Fair enough. But then they introduced a third factor: live sound (eg a radio broadcast of a concert) with no recording, whether on tape, vinyl or CD. And the audiophiles thought it was a CD, and hated it. So what some audiophiles prefer is the modifications that are made to "fit" the recording onto vinyl: the reduced dynamic range and the modified frequency response when writing to disc and converse process when playing back - that other forms of recording are too faithful and less "warm". You have hit the nail on the head but I'm not sure it is the right nail. One of the problem with CD records is that they are generally engineered by older men in rooms crammed with electronic equipment with the music heard through mediocre speakers. (If you don't believe me Google 'record engineer' and look at the images.) What is more, the majority of them will hardly ever have listened to real live instruments. They tend not to not to engineer for faithfulness in audio reproduction but to make a sound which sounds 'nice'. Live concerts tend not to be held in environments ideal for recording purposes. Nor is their sound equipment of what would be regarded as good acoustic quality. Pass this mix through a recording engineer who knows how to make music sound 'nice' and you should not be disappointed at what you get. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#56
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:17:35 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: In my search I found DACs ranging in price fro about $5(!) to $26,000. I finished up paying about $500. any of which can be used with a digital headphone jack and whatever headphones/speakers you want. not that there is an audible difference, except perhaps the $5 one. Lots of people think you are wrong. I certainly do. even more do not. some might *think* they can hear a difference, but they can't. objective double-blind tests consistently show that people do no better than chance. in other words, they're guessing. You have used that argument several times, applied to different aspects of audio. I bet you can't cite an example relating to DACs on high level equipment. numerous times, because it's true. people *think* they can hear a difference, but when put to the test, they can't. they do no better than chance. The example you originally quoted was in a different context altogether. nope It was. CD vs vinyl. Nothing to do with DAC A vs DAC B. it also applies to more than just audio. there was a double-blind test with wine, where expert wine tasters couldn't identify the cheap wines from the expensive ones, including when one of the 'red wines' was white wine + food colouring. If we accept your argument then double-blind tests are a waste of time under any circumstances we are discussing with you. nonsense. objective double-blind tests are never a waste of time, except for those who have something to hide. Then what is the point of your reference to wine? if one product really is better than another product, an objective double-bind test will show it. it's exactly what someone pushing a 'better product' would want. In fact, and for example, practically nobody could fail to detect the difference between my PC speakers and the Arcam DAC feeding the Quad amplifier and Z4 speakers with their ribbon tweeters. some will and some won't. others won't care. so what? The difference between the two DACs is not as great but it is quite audible. then something is wrong with at least one of them. ADC is easy. But DACs are hard. Just ask the experts. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#57
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
In article , 123456789
wrote: audio salespeople...rarely do a proper double-blind test. I would say salespeople rarely do a double blind test, PERIOD. yep. all they want is another sale. The other factor in LPs favor was price The complaints most voiced were sound, not price. it biases the decision process. someone might be considering a cd player but then when they realize cds are more expensive, choose a turntable. the salesperson wants to make the sale so they'll do whatever they can to sell *something*. 'warmth' is distortion, which can be added if that's what a person wants. 'Warmth' is distortion which can also be added with a tube amp, IF THAT'S WHAT A PERSON WANTS. nope. tube amps add distortion whether or not the person wants it. some people might want it, which is why they buy tube amps. others prefer more accurate sound. the distortion a tube amp adds can be added to solid state amps but it can't be removed from a tube amp. what can't be done is removing distortion that's already there. My local big box and book stores are selling LP vinyl records. Some permanently distorted people still out there... they aren't selling very many and certainly not because of their audio quality. cds can be limited to mimic vinyl. Why would anyone want to make a CD mimic vinyl? because some people think vinyl sounds better. you can always downgrade sound quality, but you can't add back what isn't there. if someone is buying a turntable or tube amp as a piece of furniture, then sound quality is not their priority. Not necessarily. Lots of people like nice furniture surrounding their solid state CD stereos too. that's two different things. |
#58
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote: some might *think* they can hear a difference, but they can't. objective double-blind tests consistently show that people do no better than chance. in other words, they're guessing. You have used that argument several times, applied to different aspects of audio. I bet you can't cite an example relating to DACs on high level equipment. numerous times, because it's true. people *think* they can hear a difference, but when put to the test, they can't. they do no better than chance. The example you originally quoted was in a different context altogether. nope It was. CD vs vinyl. Nothing to do with DAC A vs DAC B. it doesn't matter what it is. an objective-double blind test will show whether there's a difference or not. it also applies to more than just audio. there was a double-blind test with wine, where expert wine tasters couldn't identify the cheap wines from the expensive ones, including when one of the 'red wines' was white wine + food colouring. If we accept your argument then double-blind tests are a waste of time under any circumstances we are discussing with you. nonsense. objective double-blind tests are never a waste of time, except for those who have something to hide. Then what is the point of your reference to wine? that people *think* they can tell a difference for all sorts of things, but when put to the test, the fail, big time. it doesn't matter whether it's wine, audio, cameras, and more. if one product really is better than another product, an objective double-bind test will show it. it's exactly what someone pushing a 'better product' would want. In fact, and for example, practically nobody could fail to detect the difference between my PC speakers and the Arcam DAC feeding the Quad amplifier and Z4 speakers with their ribbon tweeters. some will and some won't. others won't care. so what? The difference between the two DACs is not as great but it is quite audible. then something is wrong with at least one of them. ADC is easy. But DACs are hard. Just ask the experts. the experts will say both are easy or hard, depending on numerous factors. |
#59
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
On 9/21/2018 6:37 AM, nospam wrote:
123456789 wrote: someone might be considering a cd player but then when they realize cds are more expensive, choose a turntable. The subject was COMPLAINTS not sales. And SOUND was the original complaint. tube amps add distortion whether or not the person wants it Not necessarily. Modern premium components make it easy to produce tube amplifiers that are essentially flat over the audio band, with less than 3 dB attenuation at 6 Hz and 70 kHz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound My local big box and book stores are selling LP vinyl records. they aren't selling...because of their audio quality. I imagine that LPs are purchased because of their UNIQUE audio quality. Turns out I lied above. ONE of my local big box stores, Best Buy, doesn't sell ANY LPs or CDs. And Target is winding down CD sales. Because as you said, they aren't selling. It's ironic that CDs are dying while a 100+ year old technology, analog headphones, are still ubiquitous... http://www.xxlmag.com/news/2018/07/best-buy-cd-sales/ |
#60
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Epson XP 830 Ink Cartridge Problem
In article , 123456789
wrote: someone might be considering a cd player but then when they realize cds are more expensive, choose a turntable. The subject was COMPLAINTS not sales. And SOUND was the original complaint. complaints means no sale. a salesperson doesn't give a **** what someone buys only that they buy *something*. tube amps add distortion whether or not the person wants it Not necessarily. Modern premium components make it easy to produce tube amplifiers that are essentially flat over the audio band, with less than 3 dB attenuation at 6 Hz and 70 kHz. yes necessarily, and flatness isn't the issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_s..._and_distortio n My local big box and book stores are selling LP vinyl records. they aren't selling...because of their audio quality. I imagine that LPs are purchased because of their UNIQUE audio quality. nope. the 'audio quality' can be done digitally. cds can be made to sound like vinyl. these days, people buy records for nostalgia, or hipsters thinking it's cool. |
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