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Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 16th 17, 09:24 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,528
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?


I may or may not be having trouble installing software from a CD onto an
XP Acer Netbook without a CD drive. I copied all the files to a
flashdrive and I think once I installed from the flashdrive and for sure
once I copied from the flashdrive to the HDD and installed from that.

I get one .dll that does not "register" (error messages below**)
whatever that means. (And the first time

I don't know if this is the fault of the software, the XP installation,
or the fact that I'm going from the flashdrive and not a CD. I didn't
suspect the last possibility until someone else on Amazon thought it was
his problem. Is copying to a thumb drive and installing from that ever
a problem?

Somewhere I have a USB CD drive that the ebay seller of the netbook
included, and I can find it if it would increase my chance for success.

If not that, then what can I do to resolve the error messages at the
bottom**?

Background:
I bought a new used car, 2005 Toyota Solara, and it has the check engine
light and codes 0171 and 0174, meaning a lean mixture. I've done the
easy repairs, cleaning the MAF sensor, replacing the PCV valve (which
was not leaking), and adding fuel injection cleaner (only 50 miles ago,
so I don't think it could have worked yet). The next step is to
*replace* the MAF sensor for $85, doing it myself. And after that,
likely parts are $140 and $150 dollars and $50, and I might need all
three and might need installation of one or two of them for another
$200. I hate to just replace parts without knowing which part is bad.
I was hoping to use this tool with its software to get more info about
the problem, from which "an experienced knowledgable mechanic could
easily diagnose" the problem, another webpage unrelated to this item
says.

It will probably take me hours to read about it and look at test
results, and even then I wont' know the answer, but I want to try. I've
already learned how the air/fuel ratio and 02 sensors work, pretty much,
including trim, but since I don't know what short term or long term trim
I have been having, or my fuel pressure (which most cars didn't report 5
or 10 years ago (I don't know if it has increased.) understanding things
doesn't help. I need the data. For example an inadequate fuel pump or
a clogged fuel filter can cause a lean mixture, although since the car
goes 80 without a problem, my primitive mind doubts that that is the
problem.

I have a year before the car is due for emissions inspection (its
schedule is independent of who owns it), but a) I don't want to pollute
or waste gas so I'd like to fix it asap, b) there are still some warm
days this fall.

**Installation error messages. Despite these messages, the program
started, and ran without crashing or error messages but didn't behave as
expected:

10 or 15 of these for different files, but only the first time I
installed it. How come they didn't recur the second time?:
"CRC error: The file C:\Program Files\... AHB)_1`2PF_P4.ddb doesn't
match the file in the setup's .cab file. The medium from which you are
running the setup may be corrupted; contact your software vendor."

How can the file not match the .cab file? Isn't it extracted from
the .cab file in the first place? If not, what is the .cab file for?


This one only occurred once, or conceivably it was the other one that
only occurred once and this one 10 to 15 times***.
"Error 1904, Module C:\Windows\system32\msxml4.dll failed to
register. HRESULT -2147023782. Contact your support personnel" AFAIC,
you guys are my support personnel.

What does registering entail? Can I register the file by hand. (It
sounds like it's installed, just not registered. But if it's not even
installed, maybe I can extract it by hand and move it to system 32? Or
maybe even find a copy online?

***From two days ago, I thought it was reversed but the errors are
listed in this order where I saved them.


I found and dl'd another copy of the software and installed it again and
this time I got one installation error message and then a fatal runtime
error message"
"This application has failed to start because tiswebapi.dll was not
found. Re-installing the application may fix this problem."

Ads
  #2  
Old October 16th 17, 10:49 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

micky wrote:
I may or may not be having trouble installing software from a CD onto an
XP Acer Netbook without a CD drive. I copied all the files to a
flashdrive and I think once I installed from the flashdrive and for sure
once I copied from the flashdrive to the HDD and installed from that.

I get one .dll that does not "register" (error messages below**)
whatever that means. (And the first time

I don't know if this is the fault of the software, the XP installation,
or the fact that I'm going from the flashdrive and not a CD. I didn't
suspect the last possibility until someone else on Amazon thought it was
his problem. Is copying to a thumb drive and installing from that ever
a problem?

Somewhere I have a USB CD drive that the ebay seller of the netbook
included, and I can find it if it would increase my chance for success.

If not that, then what can I do to resolve the error messages at the
bottom**?

Background:
I bought a new used car, 2005 Toyota Solara, and it has the check engine
light and codes 0171 and 0174, meaning a lean mixture. I've done the
easy repairs, cleaning the MAF sensor, replacing the PCV valve (which
was not leaking), and adding fuel injection cleaner (only 50 miles ago,
so I don't think it could have worked yet). The next step is to
*replace* the MAF sensor for $85, doing it myself. And after that,
likely parts are $140 and $150 dollars and $50, and I might need all
three and might need installation of one or two of them for another
$200. I hate to just replace parts without knowing which part is bad.
I was hoping to use this tool with its software to get more info about
the problem, from which "an experienced knowledgable mechanic could
easily diagnose" the problem, another webpage unrelated to this item
says.

It will probably take me hours to read about it and look at test
results, and even then I wont' know the answer, but I want to try. I've
already learned how the air/fuel ratio and 02 sensors work, pretty much,
including trim, but since I don't know what short term or long term trim
I have been having, or my fuel pressure (which most cars didn't report 5
or 10 years ago (I don't know if it has increased.) understanding things
doesn't help. I need the data. For example an inadequate fuel pump or
a clogged fuel filter can cause a lean mixture, although since the car
goes 80 without a problem, my primitive mind doubts that that is the
problem.

I have a year before the car is due for emissions inspection (its
schedule is independent of who owns it), but a) I don't want to pollute
or waste gas so I'd like to fix it asap, b) there are still some warm
days this fall.

**Installation error messages. Despite these messages, the program
started, and ran without crashing or error messages but didn't behave as
expected:

10 or 15 of these for different files, but only the first time I
installed it. How come they didn't recur the second time?:
"CRC error: The file C:\Program Files\... AHB)_1`2PF_P4.ddb doesn't
match the file in the setup's .cab file. The medium from which you are
running the setup may be corrupted; contact your software vendor."

How can the file not match the .cab file? Isn't it extracted from
the .cab file in the first place? If not, what is the .cab file for?


This one only occurred once, or conceivably it was the other one that
only occurred once and this one 10 to 15 times***.
"Error 1904, Module C:\Windows\system32\msxml4.dll failed to
register. HRESULT -2147023782. Contact your support personnel" AFAIC,
you guys are my support personnel.

What does registering entail? Can I register the file by hand. (It
sounds like it's installed, just not registered. But if it's not even
installed, maybe I can extract it by hand and move it to system 32? Or
maybe even find a copy online?

***From two days ago, I thought it was reversed but the errors are
listed in this order where I saved them.


I found and dl'd another copy of the software and installed it again and
this time I got one installation error message and then a fatal runtime
error message"
"This application has failed to start because tiswebapi.dll was not
found. Re-installing the application may fix this problem."


MSXML4 is available for download. If you've already installed
this, there's probably an entry in your Add/Remove Programs.
This is SP3 for MSXML4.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/down....aspx?id=15697

*******

Registering is described here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regsvr32

It's intended to identify the most recent version of
a shared library or something.

*******

There's at least one other Toyota TechStream reported incident
with tiswebapi.dll in here.

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums...eam-Activation

https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfo...nown_bugs.html

The second link seems to indicate this is a Java App ?
Presumably so it can be multi-platform. Think of the extra
fun that's going to add to the project. (Paul hates Java,
because of the maintenance headaches it causes. Version hell
plus potential security issues. But, we don't get a choice
in the matter, if someone uses Java in a commercial program.)

*******

We have the same emissions regulations here. The emissions check is
determined by "no illuminated check engine light". This
means the owner has to clean up totally irrelevant codes
before taking the car to be "inspected" for emissions.
For example, my car was showing an intake manifold runner
control error, and that has *no* effect on emissions.
It affects acceleration. And my acceleration was not
affected, even though there was a code.

Modern cars are "run" by their catalytic converter,
the fuel/air and oxygen sensors (the two sensors on the
three-way cat are *not* identical). I think you know this,
whereas I was searching the web like crazy to understand this.
When work was done on my cat, the idiots *did not* replace
both sensors. Which says they're not a matched set. Which
is weird, when you consider how most sensors work.

The ignition computer in your car, is trying to maintain
a "stoichiometric fuel-air mixture". This is richer than
the most efficient operating point. You could run the car
leaner, but it would result in different emissions numbers
if you did so. The end result is, the car wastes gas, to
give good CO2 and H2O output, without CO or NO2 or something
like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

I would take a quick whiff of the exhaust. If you
smell gas, then the ignition computer is trying
to make the mixture richer, and the sensors aren't
tripping to stop it. The sensors seem to be a
bang-bang controller, and don't really offer
a "continuous" sensor output. Once a materials
threshold is passed, the sensor changes state.
This means the feedback loop "hunts" for the
correct operating point, on a continuous basis.
One of the materials in the cat, acts as an
"oxygen reservoir", and that helps prevent
instantaneous degradation of the cat. The
oxygen reservoir recharges when the system
"swings the other way".

The mechanics on my car, hardly seemed to care
at all about how it worked. It seemed they
were mainly interested in whether the check
engine light would go off. I don't really know
whether there's any actual calibration procedure
available for those two stupid sensors. A lot
of "trust" seems to be involved.

But if you smelled gas, that would generally be
bad. It might be OK to smell gas at startup, but
once it's warm, it shouldn't be over-rich. I smell
vehicles here all the time, with excessive gasoline
emissions, and I know damn well there's no cat
underneath their car. They install the cat only
long enough to pass emissions. If you run a cat
too rich, it'll go into runaway, and achieve
an impressively high surface temperature.
It will get hot enough, to glow like a light bulb,
at night. I've seen one do it... The road was
lit up, underneath a pickup truck with that problem.
The noise sounds like a jet engine.

I asked the person doing my emissions, if they
"check for cheating", and he indicated they
don't look for mods. It's an honor system.

If your check engine light does come on here,
only a few garages have the older "actual" emissions
systems check. Which slides over the exhaust pipe.
Most garages have removed those, after the government
"simplified" the requirements. Now the garage gets
money from the government, to "stare at your check
engine light". ****, I could do that...

Paul
  #3  
Old October 25th 17, 04:56 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,528
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:49:31
-0400, Paul wrote:

micky wrote:
I may or may not be having trouble installing software from a CD onto an
XP Acer Netbook without a CD drive. I copied all the files to a
flashdrive and I think once I installed from the flashdrive and for sure
once I copied from the flashdrive to the HDD and installed from that.

I get one .dll that does not "register" (error messages below**)
whatever that means. (And the first time

I don't know if this is the fault of the software, the XP installation,
or the fact that I'm going from the flashdrive and not a CD. I didn't
suspect the last possibility until someone else on Amazon thought it was
his problem. Is copying to a thumb drive and installing from that ever
a problem?

Somewhere I have a USB CD drive that the ebay seller of the netbook
included, and I can find it if it would increase my chance for success.

If not that, then what can I do to resolve the error messages at the
bottom**?


Computer stuff is in-line where Paul's answer starts, but I updated the
auto situation too .

Background:
I bought a new used car, 2005 Toyota Solara, and it has the check engine
light and codes 0171 and 0174, meaning a lean mixture. I've done the
easy repairs, cleaning the MAF sensor, replacing the PCV valve (which
was not leaking), and adding fuel injection cleaner (only 50 miles ago,


I don't know why I said it wasn't leaking. It was.

so I don't think it could have worked yet). The next step is to
*replace* the MAF sensor for $85, doing it myself. And after that,


I did that. After that the most likely problem is a vacuum leak
somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it. I don't hear hissing and
using an unlit propane torch hasn't found a leak.

likely parts are $140 and $150 dollars and $50, and I might need all
three


Actually there are four, and I can replace 3 of them myself but the
fourth is hard to get to even with a lift.

and might need installation of one or two of them for another
$200. I hate to just replace parts without knowing which part is bad.
I was hoping to use this tool with its software to get more info about
the problem, from which "an experienced knowledgable mechanic could
easily diagnose" the problem, another webpage unrelated to this item
says.

It will probably take me hours to read about it and look at test
results, and even then I wont' know the answer, but I want to try. I've
already learned how the air/fuel ratio and 02 sensors work, pretty much,
including trim, but since I don't know what short term or long term trim
I have been having, or my fuel pressure (which most cars didn't report 5
or 10 years ago (I don't know if it has increased.) understanding things
doesn't help. I need the data. For example an inadequate fuel pump or
a clogged fuel filter can cause a lean mixture, although since the car
goes 80 without a problem, my primitive mind doubts that that is the
problem.

I have a year before the car is due for emissions inspection (its
schedule is independent of who owns it), but a) I don't want to pollute
or waste gas so I'd like to fix it asap, b) there are still some warm
days this fall.


I read that running with the check engine light on for a long time can
damage the engine, but it probably depends on why it's on. IIRC lean
mixtures can make an engine overheat, but mine so far is right in the
middle.

**Installation error messages. Despite these messages, the program
started, and ran without crashing or error messages but didn't behave as
expected:

10 or 15 of these for different files, but only the first time I
installed it. How come they didn't recur the second time?:
"CRC error: The file C:\Program Files\... AHB)_1`2PF_P4.ddb doesn't
match the file in the setup's .cab file. The medium from which you are
running the setup may be corrupted; contact your software vendor."

How can the file not match the .cab file? Isn't it extracted from
the .cab file in the first place? If not, what is the .cab file for?


This one only occurred once, or conceivably it was the other one that
only occurred once and this one 10 to 15 times***.
"Error 1904, Module C:\Windows\system32\msxml4.dll failed to
register. HRESULT -2147023782. Contact your support personnel" AFAIC,
you guys are my support personnel.

What does registering entail? Can I register the file by hand. (It
sounds like it's installed, just not registered. But if it's not even
installed, maybe I can extract it by hand and move it to system 32? Or
maybe even find a copy online?

***From two days ago, I thought it was reversed but the errors are
listed in this order where I saved them.


I found and dl'd another copy of the software and installed it again and
this time I got one installation error message and then a fatal runtime
error message"
"This application has failed to start because tiswebapi.dll was not
found. Re-installing the application may fix this problem."


MSXML4 is available for download. If you've already installed
this, there's probably an entry in your Add/Remove Programs.
This is SP3 for MSXML4.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/down....aspx?id=15697


Maybe I had this already, because it gave me a choice of Modify, Repair,
or iirc Delete. I chose Repair.

*******

Registering is described here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regsvr32

It's intended to identify the most recent version of
a shared library or something.


So it seems to me that even if this isn't done, the file is still in the
library and it will work as well as its version works, so registering
doesn't seem like a critical error.

At any rate, I used the text in the wiki url you have given me and it
registered with no trouble.

*******

There's at least one other Toyota TechStream reported incident
with tiswebapi.dll in here.

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums...eam-Activation

https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfo...nown_bugs.html

The second link seems to indicate this is a Java App ?
Presumably so it can be multi-platform. Think of the extra
fun that's going to add to the project. (Paul hates Java,
because of the maintenance headaches it causes. Version hell
plus potential security issues. But, we don't get a choice
in the matter, if someone uses Java in a commercial program.)


Well, I had Java, but this time I dl'd a slightly more recent version.

*******

We have the same emissions regulations here. The emissions check is
determined by "no illuminated check engine light". This


LOL.

means the owner has to clean up totally irrelevant codes
before taking the car to be "inspected" for emissions.
For example, my car was showing an intake manifold runner
control error, and that has *no* effect on emissions.
It affects acceleration. And my acceleration was not
affected, even though there was a code.

Modern cars are "run" by their catalytic converter,
the fuel/air and oxygen sensors (the two sensors on the
three-way cat are *not* identical). I think you know this,


I'm learning. I have 4 sensors after all, and 3 cats. Two little
cats, one for each bank, and a sensor both before and after each one.

Of course there is a lot to be said for Don't shoot the messenger.
(although sometimes they do fail, and I'd just replace them if the
Sensor 1's weren't about $130 and the other two about $50. (I can reach
3 of them but not the 4th without a lift or crawling under the car,
which I don't wan to do. There was for 20 years a DIY garage, but though
they are still called Self-Service [garage], the reviews say they are
not anymore. They were expensive) If the fuel/air sensor or 02 sensor
gives a code, that might just mean that it found something wrong, not
that it's broken.

whereas I was searching the web like crazy to understand this.
When work was done on my cat, the idiots *did not* replace
both sensors. Which says they're not a matched set. Which
is weird, when you consider how most sensors work.

The ignition computer in your car, is trying to maintain
a "stoichiometric fuel-air mixture".


That's a long word. I've never seen a civilian use it before.

This is richer than
the most efficient operating point. You could run the car
leaner, but it would result in different emissions numbers
if you did so. The end result is, the car wastes gas, to
give good CO2 and H2O output, without CO or NO2 or something
like that.


Yes, even if I can pass emissions (a year from now) Idon't want to waste
gas, waste money, or pollute, and sometimes they claim that running with
a code, some codes t hat is, can hurt the car. I don't know if this is
true or if it's these codes. One effect that goes with a lean mixture
is overheating, which coulc hurt the engine but mine is not overheating.
Of course I haven't tried to climb the Blue Ridge Mountains yet (and
don't plan to.)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

I would take a quick whiff of the exhaust. If you
smell gas, then the ignition computer is trying
to make the mixture richer, and the sensors aren't
tripping to stop it. The sensors seem to be a


I'll do that.

I bought a scan tool from harbor freight for $100, marked down to 80
because the cashier found me a $20 coupon, and it measures short term
and long term fuel trimming, which is a measure of adjustments made in
the how much gas is sprayed it. The long term should vary only slowly
but the short term can vary several times a second, maybe from -1 to +1
(or 2 or more?) Instead my short term numbers are much higher, and the
guy who did the safety inspection (unrelated to emissions) said that
generally means a vacuum leak, and that the engine is sucking in air
that doesn't go past the Mass Air Flow sensor, so iow it's "unmetered"
and the computer doesn't know about it, but becuase of the air/fule
sensor

There is probably a better scan tool for $65 on Amazon, plus lots of
others elsewhere. The one I bought doesn't display graphs, only
varying numbers with 10 categories to a page or freeze frames. And it
says it doesn't know about the air-fule sensors, only the 02, and it's
the AF I want to know about.

bang-bang controller, and don't really offer
a "continuous" sensor output. Once a materials
threshold is passed, the sensor changes state.
This means the feedback loop "hunts" for the
correct operating point, on a continuous basis.
One of the materials in the cat, acts as an
"oxygen reservoir", and that helps prevent
instantaneous degradation of the cat. The
oxygen reservoir recharges when the system
"swings the other way".


I'll have to read this again later. Didn't get this paragraph the first
ime.

The mechanics on my car, hardly seemed to care
at all about how it worked. It seemed they
were mainly interested in whether the check
engine light would go off. I don't really know
whether there's any actual calibration procedure
available for those two stupid sensors. A lot
of "trust" seems to be involved.


The cars get more and more complicated, and I think I said 20 years ago
that anyone smart enough to be a really good mechanic could make more
money doing something else, and that's even more true now. . I think the
only thing that keeps the really smart ones, who might have a
comprehensive understanding, rather than a procedure, is that they like
cars. Sort of like poets don't make much money but they like to be
poets.

But if you smelled gas, that would generally be
bad. It might be OK to smell gas at startup, but
once it's warm, it shouldn't be over-rich. I smell
vehicles here all the time, with excessive gasoline
emissions, and I know damn well there's no cat
underneath their car. They install the cat only
long enough to pass emissions. If you run a cat
too rich, it'll go into runaway, and achieve
an impressively high surface temperature.
It will get hot enough, to glow like a light bulb,
at night. I've seen one do it... The road was
lit up, underneath a pickup truck with that problem.
The noise sounds like a jet engine.


Next time you go watch, call me.

I asked the person doing my emissions, if they
"check for cheating", and he indicated they
don't look for mods. It's an honor system.


That's not true everywhere. In Maryland I think they use the same kind
of mirror that the US embassies use to look for bombs.

If your check engine light does come on here,
only a few garages have the older "actual" emissions
systems check. Which slides over the exhaust pipe.
Most garages have removed those, after the government
"simplified" the requirements. Now the garage gets


Ever since obd2 existed, 1996.

money from the government, to "stare at your check
engine light". ****, I could do that...


Maybe you can get a job.

Paul


BTW, first thing I did was clean t he MAF sensor. it was definitely
dirty. But I'm 95% sure it ran worse after that. Then I replaced the
PCV valve, which was dirty and leaked. But that didn't help.

The I added injector cleaner to the gas, but if that does anyting it
will take days or weeks.

Then I listened for a hiss and used propane to check for vacuum leak.
No luck.

Then I replaced the MAF sensor, which is very easy, but $85.

Then I looked for vacuum leaks some more, using propane and later
starting fluid.

I was hoping to get more or better test equipment, including what the
original post was about. (Although I don't even know what that software
measure. I thought of buying the original toyota software, which is
for sale for $55 for 2 days access, but, and I'm going to call them, it
looks like I'd have to spend another 500 to get up and running. I would
gladly spend the 55 because I've calculated that I will waste $59.80 on
gasoline on this 2-week trip, and when I get back it might be too cold
to work on the car.
  #4  
Old October 25th 17, 05:42 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

micky wrote:


BTW, first thing I did was clean t he MAF sensor. it was definitely
dirty. But I'm 95% sure it ran worse after that. Then I replaced the
PCV valve, which was dirty and leaked. But that didn't help.

The I added injector cleaner to the gas, but if that does anyting it
will take days or weeks.

Then I listened for a hiss and used propane to check for vacuum leak.
No luck.

Then I replaced the MAF sensor, which is very easy, but $85.

Then I looked for vacuum leaks some more, using propane and later
starting fluid.

I was hoping to get more or better test equipment, including what the
original post was about. (Although I don't even know what that software
measure. I thought of buying the original toyota software, which is
for sale for $55 for 2 days access, but, and I'm going to call them, it
looks like I'd have to spend another 500 to get up and running. I would
gladly spend the 55 because I've calculated that I will waste $59.80 on
gasoline on this 2-week trip, and when I get back it might be too cold
to work on the car.


You should find a web page with more info about
how Toyota does this stuff.

This page has some electrical waveforms for the sensors,
and at least for one sensor, you can see the bang-bang
response. The sensor puts out a logic 0 or a logic 1
or a sort. Using the feedback, the ignition computer
seeks to "center" the thing, based on the stream
of 0's and 1's.

The page also has some info about Toyota.

http://www.troublecodes.net/pcodes/p0430/

An example of another bang-bang controller, is the
alternator, and the field winding on it. The voltage
regulator is like a buzzer, that rapidly makes and breaks
the field connection, so "on average" a certain amount
of current flows in the field winding. This makes the
alternator generate just enough power to (slightly)
charge the battery, even if you're using accessories.
If you turn on the headlights, the system voltage drops,
the voltage regulator increases the duty cycle to the field
winding, the car voltage pops up in response (compensating
for the drain caused by the headlights). Just so you
know that car makers have a fixation with bang-bang
control loops.

The cerium particles in the cat, help ensure that only
the long term behavior of the car control loop matters.
If you consistently ran the thing rich (ignition computer
broken say), then eventually it's going to damage the
catalytic converter. But for the time scale of the
bang-bang behavior, where it hunts for a stoichiometric
mixture, the catalyst is not hurt by very short timescale
deviations from ideality. But if the control loop is
not working properly (failed sensor), then be prepared
to see an evil glow from underneath the car.

My cat, one shop I got an estimate from, took me under
the car and showed the casing on the cat had "started to
weep". Condensation collects in there after the car is
shut off. It eventually corrodes through the cat housing.
And you can see marks on the outside of the cat, that
attest to limited remaining life. Stuff like that,
helps it fall off the car faster. As it was, the
flange on the end of the cat was ruined, and we were
discussing the possibility of welding the center pipe
to the cat. But knowing how many maintenance procedures
on the car, requiring lifting the engine off the
mounts, I decided against that. I ended up getting a
new cat ($$$) and center pipe ($$). And one new sensor ($),
when the threads were too far gone on it to reuse it.

There is a test that "speed shops" use, which is injection
of propane into the air stream, as a means to see that the
air fuel sensor is responding. I don't really know if my
mechanic did such a test or not. After asking them a number
of questions, I got the distinct impression they just wanted
the Check Engine light to go off. Since the shop didn't have
any Drive Clean equipment (to do emissions), they couldn't
actually verify the CO or NOx coming from the pipe. My mechanics
here, any procedure that doesn't turn over big money, they
don't waste a bay on such equipment. For example, the body shop
doesn't have wheel alignment equipment (so if you're in a crash,
they send it out when it's time for that). (Only our tire shop,
has a bay with the alignment rig on it.) And things like
Drive Clean, they'd never make any money, if one bay in the shop
was "wasted" on emissions checks.

The good news about the system, is nobody gives a flying fig
about the actual emissions (clever!). The bad news, is the "more money
making indicator", the Check Engine light, pumps more money
into the pockets at the garage. And that light could come on
if your ashtray was too full.

Paul
  #5  
Old October 25th 17, 04:54 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,528
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 24 Oct 2017 23:56:40
-0400, micky wrote:


I was hoping to get more or better test equipment, including what the
original post was about. (Although I don't even know what that software
measure. I thought of buying the original toyota software, which is
for sale for $55 for 2 days access, but, and I'm going to call them, it


I called, and for $55, you get to download and use the software for 2
days. After that, nothing. Or you can buy another 2 days, or a year
for iirc a thousand.

Plus you need a cable. The one I bought for $15 she didn't know about,
of course, but if that doesn't work, I have to buy theirs for $400 or
480, and of course while waiting for it to come, the 2 days will expire.

I said, Well, if I have to check in weekly, doesn't that mean I'd have a
week before the software knew I hadn't done that, but she said that's
for yearly customers and I would only get 2 days. This would be worth
it for a small shop who could fix most cars and most toyotas without
help, but when he had a hard one, he'd pay $55 and bill it to the
customer, and he'd have all day for two days to work on the car, but I
don't know what I'm doing so I have to think about it at night for a
week or two, and I only work on the car at most 4 hours a day and only
when the weather is good. And it's good now so I'm not going to read
Paul's reply but I'm going outside to add another 2 cigarette lighters
to the car, one of which will be on even when the car is off.

And to put a remote button in the dash for the trunk release, so I won't
have to use the fob all the time (and the fob won't work for some reason
when the car is running). This should be simple but the wires are so
hard to get to. There are supposed to be 4 conectors under the left
kick panel, and there are 4 but one doesn't match any of the four and
the fifth is way up there and I can't even see it. I'm going to cut
open the sheath and find the wire in that, but I'm only 60% sure which
of the two bundles of wires it is. I'm going to assume the sheath
does't really do anything once the harness is installed.


looks like I'd have to spend another 500 to get up and running. I would
gladly spend the 55 because I've calculated that I will waste $59.80 on
gasoline on this 2-week trip, and when I get back it might be too cold
to work on the car.


  #6  
Old October 26th 17, 05:08 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

micky wrote:


BTW, the guy at the shop said that even though the Short Term Fuel Trim
changes a few times a second, the scan tool slows that down so you can
look at it. Does that sound right? The guy was no dummy but I still
like to check.


If you punch in a few of the fine technical terms you're using,
you can get more information on the topic. The good news I extract
here, is the interface to this is in "Global OBDI II".

http://www.autoserviceprofessional.c...t-work-for-you

"Global OBD-II fuel trim reporting was standardized for
all manufacturers in 2005 and later models equipped
with a CAN bus control system."

In their screenshot of some PC display, it shows a polling
interval there of once-a-second.

I don't really know how many computer buses and
what traffic they carry. If data for injector operation
was on the bus, it would need a high temporal priority
if injectors were actually operated that way. A lot
of the stuff we see in these scanner articles, seems
to be lower speed traffic.

Computer buses can be single-master or multi-master.
If you make a bus multi-master, and the computers
sharing also have real time response requirements,
the "inferior" master cannot chew up too much time
on the bus, or the engine would hiccup. And in my small
amount of scanner usage, I don't see any signs of that.

Maybe tracking down more articles on CAN bus would
highlight how it works, at the time scales involved.

It's possible to make serial buses with a lot of
wire to make the bus. You use slew rate limiting
on the signals, so there isn't a huge problem with
reflections on the bus. But don't expect the signaling
rate, to be anywhere near what the buses in your PC
are doing right now. For example, if they were running
at 10MHz, that would be some sort of miracle. The closest
example of that sort of bus speed, is RS422, which can
run a fair distance, and would probably resist electrical
interference a bit.

And it is differential, so has some similarity to RS422.
Just the length of the article, tells you it's more
sophisticated. You're going to "burn out a pair of
reading glasses" on this stuff :-) This article doesn't
even delve into the frequencies used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus

This article says CANbus can do 1Mbit/sec over
40 meters of wire. That will give some idea just
how many messages can travel a second over it.
Divide message length into 1Mbit to get some
idea of the messages per second possible.

http://canlab.cz/pages/download/canhard.pdf

So your short term fuel trim, could be limited
by how many calculations per second the processor
working it out, can do. As long as time-sensitive
bus traffic can get through, there's probably a lot
of bus bandwidth left over for a scanner (and it's
processor) to make queries.

Paul
  #7  
Old October 26th 17, 05:59 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,528
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:56:25
-0400, micky wrote:


Well, all over Ebay there are $15 versions of this, with cables that
have rather complicated circuits in the obd2 plug (and an usb plug on
the other end) plus they include software,


Some of them have clear plastic cases, and some ads show the circuit
board directly, without the case, and it's got a lot of parts.


Here is one of the many Elm... things I was talking about:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

Newegg doesn't sell crap, or pirated stuff, does it? And yet the
hardware is only $10. I have the webpage for the free software, but
I'll have to look for it. Don't even remember the name at the moment.

Here's one on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Hain-Version-...rds=elm327+usb
$15 but it includes the free software.

These are the USB model but there is also bluetooth and wifi.

(There is also something entirely different that uses bluetooth and your
smartphone as the monitor.)

As you can see below, it shows 02 values, which are important to me
right now, but like with all of them, I don't know if they are including
the Air/fuel ratio sensor among the 02 sensors. Some seem to call the
first by the second's name, but a vendor might rely on the difference
to not show air/fuel and say, "Well, we said we show 02, not air/fuel.".

One person I read was bothered by this line "Please unload your virus
protector first when you install the software.If you have any questions
about it,please email us." What do you think?

=============
ELM327 USB Interface V1.5 work on PC

OBD-II Software for ELM327 USB is a free program that allows you to use
your PC and a hardware interface to get the information from your car's
computer.
The program is very user-friendly, and easy to learn. It is also very
easy to install: simply extract the files into a folder on your
computer's hard drive, and you're ready to go. To uninstall the program,
simply delete the entire contents of the folder where the program
resides.

The program lets you perform the following operations:
1. Read diagnostic trouble codes, both generic and
manufacturer-specific, and display their meaning (over 3000 generic code
definitions in the database).
2. Clear trouble codes and turn off the MIL ("Check Engine" light)
3. Display current sensor data, including:
4. Engine RPM
5. Calculated Load Value
6. Coolant Temperature
7. Fuel System Status
8. Vehicle Speed
9. Short Term Fuel Trim
10. Long Term Fuel Trim
11. Intake Manifold Pressure
12. Timing Advance
13. Intake Air Temperature
14. Air Flow Rate
15. Absolute Throttle Position
16. Oxygen sensor voltages/associated short term fuel trims
17. Fuel System status
18. Fuel Pressure
AND Many others...

Featu
Data graphing and logging
Freeze Frame data
Continuous and Non-Continuous Oxygen Sensor test results


ELM327 Free softwa
1. G-M Mode 22 Scan Tool by Terry
2. OBD Gauge for PalmOS and Pocket PC by Dana Peters
3. OBD Logger by Jonathan Senkerik
4. OBD-II ScanMaster by Wladimir Gurskij (ScanMaster 3.52 - local copy)
5. obd2crazy.com
6. OBD2 Scantool by Ivan Andrewjeski
7. OBDII for ELM322 by David Huffman
8. pyOBD by Donour Sizemore for MacOSX and Linux
9. RDDTC by Pete Calinski
10. Real Scan by Brent Harris
11. ScanTest for Pocket PC by Ivan Ganev aka a-ser
12. wOBD by WDT

Vechicle Coverage:
Works on almost OBD2 Vehicles (1996 onwards in USA) and EOBD vehicles (
Petrol cars from 2001 and diesel cars from 2003/2004 in Europe)
For your information:
For your vehicle to be OBD II compliant it must have a 16-pin DLC (Data
Link Connector) under the dash and the Vehicle Emission Control
Information Label must state that the vehicle is OBD II compliant.

Al fa Romeo/ Audi/ Bentley/ B M W/ Cadillac/ Chevrolet/ Chrysler/
Citroen/ Daewoo/ Fiat/ Ford/ G-M/ Hon da/ Hyundai/ Isuzu/ Jaguar/ Jeep/
Kia/ Land Rover/ Lexus/ Mazda/ Mercury/ Mini/ Nissan/ Mitsubishi/ Opel/
Peugeot/ Porsche/ Renault/ Rover/ Saab/ Seat/ Skoda/ Toyota/ Vauxhall/
Volvo/ VW

ELM 327 Software Included:
Scantool_net113win
EasyOBDII V2.2
OBD2Spy
ScanMaster-ELM
wOBDCRAZY

Packing List:
1 x ELM327 Main Unit
1 x Software CD

The program lets you perform the following operations:
Windows 2000/XP/
=============
  #8  
Old October 26th 17, 06:29 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

micky wrote:
In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:56:25
-0400, micky wrote:

Well, all over Ebay there are $15 versions of this, with cables that
have rather complicated circuits in the obd2 plug (and an usb plug on
the other end) plus they include software,


Some of them have clear plastic cases, and some ads show the circuit
board directly, without the case, and it's got a lot of parts.


Here is one of the many Elm... things I was talking about:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

Newegg doesn't sell crap, or pirated stuff, does it? And yet the
hardware is only $10. I have the webpage for the free software, but
I'll have to look for it. Don't even remember the name at the moment.

Here's one on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Hain-Version-...rds=elm327+usb
$15 but it includes the free software.

These are the USB model but there is also bluetooth and wifi.

(There is also something entirely different that uses bluetooth and your
smartphone as the monitor.)

As you can see below, it shows 02 values, which are important to me
right now, but like with all of them, I don't know if they are including
the Air/fuel ratio sensor among the 02 sensors. Some seem to call the
first by the second's name, but a vendor might rely on the difference
to not show air/fuel and say, "Well, we said we show 02, not air/fuel.".

One person I read was bothered by this line "Please unload your virus
protector first when you install the software.If you have any questions
about it,please email us." What do you think?

=============
ELM327 USB Interface V1.5 work on PC

OBD-II Software for ELM327 USB is a free program that allows you to use
your PC and a hardware interface to get the information from your car's
computer.
The program is very user-friendly, and easy to learn. It is also very
easy to install: simply extract the files into a folder on your
computer's hard drive, and you're ready to go. To uninstall the program,
simply delete the entire contents of the folder where the program
resides.

The program lets you perform the following operations:
1. Read diagnostic trouble codes, both generic and
manufacturer-specific, and display their meaning (over 3000 generic code
definitions in the database).
2. Clear trouble codes and turn off the MIL ("Check Engine" light)
3. Display current sensor data, including:
4. Engine RPM
5. Calculated Load Value
6. Coolant Temperature
7. Fuel System Status
8. Vehicle Speed
9. Short Term Fuel Trim
10. Long Term Fuel Trim
11. Intake Manifold Pressure
12. Timing Advance
13. Intake Air Temperature
14. Air Flow Rate
15. Absolute Throttle Position
16. Oxygen sensor voltages/associated short term fuel trims
17. Fuel System status
18. Fuel Pressure
AND Many others...

Featu
Data graphing and logging
Freeze Frame data
Continuous and Non-Continuous Oxygen Sensor test results


ELM327 Free softwa
1. G-M Mode 22 Scan Tool by Terry
2. OBD Gauge for PalmOS and Pocket PC by Dana Peters
3. OBD Logger by Jonathan Senkerik
4. OBD-II ScanMaster by Wladimir Gurskij (ScanMaster 3.52 - local copy)
5. obd2crazy.com
6. OBD2 Scantool by Ivan Andrewjeski
7. OBDII for ELM322 by David Huffman
8. pyOBD by Donour Sizemore for MacOSX and Linux
9. RDDTC by Pete Calinski
10. Real Scan by Brent Harris
11. ScanTest for Pocket PC by Ivan Ganev aka a-ser
12. wOBD by WDT

Vechicle Coverage:
Works on almost OBD2 Vehicles (1996 onwards in USA) and EOBD vehicles (
Petrol cars from 2001 and diesel cars from 2003/2004 in Europe)
For your information:
For your vehicle to be OBD II compliant it must have a 16-pin DLC (Data
Link Connector) under the dash and the Vehicle Emission Control
Information Label must state that the vehicle is OBD II compliant.

Al fa Romeo/ Audi/ Bentley/ B M W/ Cadillac/ Chevrolet/ Chrysler/
Citroen/ Daewoo/ Fiat/ Ford/ G-M/ Hon da/ Hyundai/ Isuzu/ Jaguar/ Jeep/
Kia/ Land Rover/ Lexus/ Mazda/ Mercury/ Mini/ Nissan/ Mitsubishi/ Opel/
Peugeot/ Porsche/ Renault/ Rover/ Saab/ Seat/ Skoda/ Toyota/ Vauxhall/
Volvo/ VW

ELM 327 Software Included:
Scantool_net113win
EasyOBDII V2.2
OBD2Spy
ScanMaster-ELM
wOBDCRAZY

Packing List:
1 x ELM327 Main Unit
1 x Software CD

The program lets you perform the following operations:
Windows 2000/XP/
=============


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELM327

It's a PIC microcontroller, translating something from CAN bus,
into USB. The PIC microcontroller can be pretty cheap. The article
even mentions data rates :-) 500Kbit/sec.

ISO 15765-4 CAN (29 bit ID, 500 kbit/s)

There shouldn't be a problem with grounding, as the car
is electrically floating while you're working on it, and
your laptop doesn't have any other sneak paths. It might
be different if you were using a desktop next to the
car, and were doing some other tricky wiring to the
car.

For example, when I replaced the battery in my car, I made
a "holder" power source, to take the place of the battery.
By clipping that onto the battery cables, it provided power so
the CD player wouldn't need to be reset (or whatever).
Worked a treat. I used a DC power source and a diode,
to isolate it, so the car battery can't blow my
Frankenstein gadget to hell :-) That would be an example
of a potential way to cause a grounding problem, to a
car that was otherwise "floating" electrically.

Paul
  #9  
Old October 26th 17, 10:28 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages? (now OT: CANbus)

In message , Paul
writes:
[]
It's a PIC microcontroller, translating something from CAN bus,
into USB. The PIC microcontroller can be pretty cheap. The article
even mentions data rates :-) 500Kbit/sec.

ISO 15765-4 CAN (29 bit ID, 500 kbit/s)

[]
I recently worked in this area. CAN works at various speeds - 50k,
83333, 100, 125, 250, 500, 1M, and probably a few others I've forgotten
about - though any one bus will operate at only one speed. As a very
rough rule, I would normally try 500k first for dashboards: if they had
two CANbuses, one would be 500k and one 100 or 125. (I never saw a 1M
one.) 250 wasn't uncommon either. 50k tended to be used in earlier
models, including the ones that used a single-wire variant (normal CAN
is two-wire, differential).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Who can refute a sneer? - Archdeacon Paley, in his book Moral Philosophy
  #10  
Old October 26th 17, 10:35 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

In message , micky
writes:
[]
So I got corsage pin (I've lost all my hat pins) and ran it through the
insulation of the first wire, the thinner of the two, and connected it
to a voltmeter and then opened the trunk. Each time I'd see a short
pulse in the digital meter up to iirc 12 volts, but interestingly, it
would follow the sound of the trunk release by a half second.


The keyword there is "digital"; most digital meters are quite slow,
ranging from one reading every two or three seconds, up to maybe four
times a second. An old-fashioned moving coil (i. e. pointer) meter would
serve you better. Or, if you're going to do this sort of thing a lot, an
LED (with series resistor) - or, a small loudspeaker (most definitely
with series resistor!); the latter has the advantage that you don't have
to look at it. (Actually, I'm a great believer in "listening" in this
way to such signals: one can become familiar with the sound of various
signals, both when well and when poorly. Though I've never actually
listened to CAN.)

To check your meter's response time, just connect it to something you
know is 12V and back again to 0V a few times - and watch how quickly (or
not) it gets there. Half a second isn't unusual for a DMM.

Then it got dark and slightly cold.


(-:

But I'm almost done. Maybe I can finish tomorrow.

[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Who can refute a sneer? - Archdeacon Paley, in his book Moral Philosophy
  #11  
Old October 26th 17, 11:56 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , micky
writes:

The keyword there is "digital"; most digital meters are quite slow,
ranging from one reading every two or three seconds, up to maybe four
times a second.


That's probably the old dual slope meters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrating_ADC

The fastest multimeter I ever used, did 1000
measurements a second. I think the instrument
was designed as part of a "bar bet". As users
didn't typically run the instrument at that
high of a sampling rate. (There were a number
of rates available.) You got one extra digit of
accuracy, if you ran it at the 1 sample per
second rate, which is mostly how it was used.

Paul
  #12  
Old October 26th 17, 12:24 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

In message , Paul
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , micky
writes:
The keyword there is "digital"; most digital meters are quite slow,
ranging from one reading every two or three seconds, up to maybe four
times a second.


That's probably the old dual slope meters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrating_ADC


I think that's still the commonest mechanism used in digital readouts ..

The fastest multimeter I ever used, did 1000
measurements a second. I think the instrument
was designed as part of a "bar bet". As users
didn't typically run the instrument at that
high of a sampling rate. (There were a number
of rates available.) You got one extra digit of
accuracy, if you ran it at the 1 sample per
second rate, which is mostly how it was used.

Paul

... because it's good for high precision, and if the display is digital,
the using human can't perceive changes faster than a few times a second
(especially where it's fluctuating about a point that changes most of
the digits, e. g. 12.9 to 13 volts)*. Certainly, a 1000Hz sampling rate
wouldn't be of any practical _use_ - if you're just looking at the
readout. If it's being _logged_ (or possibly if the display is a
waveform type, i. e. oscilloscope-like), then that's a different matter.

* I am reminded of a story which may or may not be apocryphal: that when
digital meters were introduced into some process - I think it was the
manufacture of resistors, in the days when they were made and then
measured to see which bin to put them into, rather than being
precision-made as they are now - productivity plummeted, to the
displeasure of the workers who were on piecework. The reason being that
the workers had become adept at looking at how a moving-coil meter was
moving and could predict where it would settle long before it did - but
could not do the same with a digital readout.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

computers don't solve problems; they help humans solve problems - Colin Barker,
Computing 1999-2-18, p. 21
  #13  
Old October 26th 17, 03:44 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,528
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Thu, 26 Oct 2017 10:35:50
+0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , micky
writes:
[]
So I got [a] corsage pin (I've lost all my hat pins) and ran it through the
insulation of the first wire, the thinner of the two, and connected it
to a voltmeter and then opened the trunk. Each time I'd see a short
pulse in the digital meter up to iirc 12 volts, but interestingly, it
would follow the sound of the trunk release by a half second.


The keyword there is "digital"; most digital meters are quite slow,
ranging from one reading every two or three seconds, up to maybe four
times a second.


Wow. I didn't know thst but now I do. I guess when I've measured
stable voltages or resistances, I'm not in a hurry and if it takes time,
I don't notice. Or my eyes are on the test leads and I don't even look
at the meter until I get them in place.

An old-fashioned moving coil (i. e. pointer) meter would


I have a few of those, but I tend to use the $3 Harbor Freight meter,
especially on the car, because it's no fragile like a needle meter, it's
smaller and lighter than older meters, and if it gets dirty or broken,
it's no big loss. 30 years ago I left a meter on the engine and drove
for days before I opened the hood. I think one of the test leads was
still there, and that's why I remembered the rest had been It was a
cheap meter too, but analog.

serve you better. Or, if you're going to do this sort of thing a lot, an
LED (with series resistor) - or, a small loudspeaker (most definitely
with series resistor!); the latter has the advantage that you don't have
to look at it.


I hadn't thought of thse things.

(Actually, I'm a great believer in "listening" in this
way to such signals: one can become familiar with the sound of various
signals, both when well and when poorly. Though I've never actually
listened to CAN.)


This is just the trunk release voltage, straight 12 volts. To
elaborate, the trunk has no keyhole and the only way to open it up is
with the fob or with the lever by the front seat (which because this is
a convertible and you don't want someone climbing over the door or the
trunk and opening the trunk when you're not there, in 2005 the lever can
be locked (unlike 2000, when the remedy was to disable it inside the
trunk)). But the fob is designed to not work when the keys are in the
ignition. So if the fob breaks you have to unlock the lever and use
that (and the fob did break in my 2000 Toyota, but then the trunk had a
keyhole). Other cars have a button on the dash but this one didn't
have that.

To check your meter's response time, just connect it to something you
know is 12V and back again to 0V a few times - and watch how quickly (or
not) it gets there. Half a second isn't unusual for a DMM.


I'll do that.

Then it got dark and slightly cold.


(-:

But I'm almost done. Maybe I can finish tomorrow.

[]


  #14  
Old October 26th 17, 09:40 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

In message , micky
writes:
In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Thu, 26 Oct 2017 10:35:50
+0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , micky
writes:
[]
So I got [a] corsage pin (I've lost all my hat pins) and ran it through the
insulation of the first wire, the thinner of the two, and connected it
to a voltmeter and then opened the trunk. Each time I'd see a short
pulse in the digital meter up to iirc 12 volts, but interestingly, it
would follow the sound of the trunk release by a half second.


The keyword there is "digital"; most digital meters are quite slow,
ranging from one reading every two or three seconds, up to maybe four
times a second.


Another thought has just occurred to me, especially as you said you
didn't think the thin wire you found could carry the current (15A, I
think you said!) to operate the boot release [I'm in UK (-:]: could it
be a telltale, i. e. a signal _back_ to the controller that confirms
that the release _has_ operated? (So that, if the tellback signal has
not been received, maybe the controller sends another pulse, or lights a
fault light, or something?)

Or, it could just feed a relay.
[]
serve you better. Or, if you're going to do this sort of thing a lot, an
LED (with series resistor) - or, a small loudspeaker (most definitely
with series resistor!); the latter has the advantage that you don't have
to look at it.


I hadn't thought of thse things.

(Actually, I'm a great believer in "listening" in this
way to such signals: one can become familiar with the sound of various


That would certainly confirm whether the signal you found is the right
one ...
[]
This is just the trunk release voltage, straight 12 volts. To


.... in that, if it is, you'd hear the click from the speaker at the same
time as (or _possibly_ a split second before) you hear the boot release.

elaborate, the trunk has no keyhole and the only way to open it up is
with the fob or with the lever by the front seat (which because this is
a convertible and you don't want someone climbing over the door or the
trunk and opening the trunk when you're not there, in 2005 the lever can


Hmm, I wouldn't have thought of that problem! A keylock is more failsafe
though (-:

be locked (unlike 2000, when the remedy was to disable it inside the
trunk)). But the fob is designed to not work when the keys are in the


Good idea - you don't really want the boot opening when you're moving.

ignition. So if the fob breaks you have to unlock the lever and use
that (and the fob did break in my 2000 Toyota, but then the trunk had a
keyhole). Other cars have a button on the dash but this one didn't
have that.


(One of the many things putting me off buying a modern car is those
fobs. Another thing to go wrong, and cost an arm and a leg if you have
to replace them. [And can be hacked.])
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

How do you govern a country that seems to have decided that facts are the work
of the devil? - Andy Hamilton on HIGNFY, 2010
  #15  
Old October 29th 17, 06:16 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,528
Default Installation problems: Flash drive? Error messages?

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Thu, 26 Oct 2017 21:40:52
+0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , micky
writes:
In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Thu, 26 Oct 2017 10:35:50
+0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , micky
writes:
[]
So I got [a] corsage pin (I've lost all my hat pins) and ran it through the
insulation of the first wire, the thinner of the two, and connected it
to a voltmeter and then opened the trunk. Each time I'd see a short
pulse in the digital meter up to iirc 12 volts, but interestingly, it
would follow the sound of the trunk release by a half second.

The keyword there is "digital"; most digital meters are quite slow,
ranging from one reading every two or three seconds, up to maybe four
times a second.


Another thought has just occurred to me, especially as you said you
didn't think the thin wire you found could carry the current (15A, I
think you said!) to operate the boot release [I'm in UK (-:]: could it
be a telltale, i. e. a signal _back_ to the controller that confirms
that the release _has_ operated? (So that, if the tellback signal has
not been received, maybe the controller sends another pulse, or lights a
fault light, or something?)


Well, all the wires in my previous Toyota, and this one, seem thin
compared to wires in GM and Chrysler cars, althought part of that could
be that the insulation is thinner, not the rubbery stuff I was used to
through 1995, but thinner "plastic".

Anyhow, it's all working now so it definitely was the power wire. I
measured the current a couple times before connecting it up, and using
the cheapest of the cheap digital VOM's it was about 1.8 amps the first
time, but only 0.8 amps the second time, I don't know why. But it does
have a 10 amp fuse I'm pretty sure.

Or, it could just feed a relay.


No relay. I have the wiring diagram, so I know what's at and near the
trunk. I have to guess at one is in the verious contriol modules.
[]
serve you better. Or, if you're going to do this sort of thing a lot, an
LED (with series resistor) - or, a small loudspeaker (most definitely
with series resistor!); the latter has the advantage that you don't have
to look at it.


I hadn't thought of thse things.

(Actually, I'm a great believer in "listening" in this
way to such signals: one can become familiar with the sound of various


That would certainly confirm whether the signal you found is the right
one ...
[]
This is just the trunk release voltage, straight 12 volts. To


... in that, if it is, you'd hear the click from the speaker at the same
time as (or _possibly_ a split second before) you hear the boot release.

elaborate, the trunk has no keyhole and the only way to open it up is
with the fob or with the lever by the front seat (which because this is
a convertible and you don't want someone climbing over the door or the
trunk and opening the trunk when you're not there, in 2005 the lever can


Hmm, I wouldn't have thought of that problem! A keylock is more failsafe
though (-:


No kidding. The right side door has no keyhole either and just tonight I
couldn't unlock it with the power lock button, or the remote control --
it would move in the direction of unlock but get stuck 1/2 of the way
there -- or the unlock "button" on the door itself. Finally I was able
to lock it fully with that button (more like a wide rocker, painted red
on one side) and then unlock it with the inside door handle.

be locked (unlike 2000, when the remedy was to disable it inside the
trunk)). But the fob is designed to not work when the keys are in the


Good idea - you don't really want the boot opening when you're moving.


ignition. So if the fob breaks you have to unlock the lever and use
that (and the fob did break in my 2000 Toyota, but then the trunk had a
keyhole). Other cars have a button on the dash but this one didn't
have that.


(One of the many things putting me off buying a modern car is those
fobs. Another thing to go wrong, and cost an arm and a leg if you have
to replace them. [And can be hacked.])


They're not so expensive anymore. Both for a 2004 Chrysler and the
2005 Toyota, the keys were about 2 for $16, and then 5 or 6 dollars each
to get cut, and free to program. There is even a $15 device for
Toyotas and maybe for other cars that iiuc says it will make a key when
you have lost all of them. I was going to use it because it also says
it goes quicker, but a few people got confused and had trouble so I
decided to do it the harder way, which wasn't so hard at all. "FICBOX
Vehicle OBD II OBDII OBD2 All in1 Programmer 4D CHIP and Smart Key Maker
Keymaker For Toyota Lexus " The Chrysler keys didn't say this but the
Amazon ad for the Toyota keys said, and an a piece of paper that came
with the keys said, that they had to be programmed by a locksmith or
dealer, but it's not true. It was easy.

And the fobs were $17 each (11 for the Chrysler), and free to program.

But you're right about breaking. Both fobs for the previous Toyota
broke at the same time (and they still worked with the demo thing at the
auto parts store) so I figured it was the receiver. First Toyota is
ridiculous about hiding screws so I had to take out the console to get
to the screws that held whatever is in front of the receiver. I replace
it 2 or 3 times from ones I bought on Ebay and none worked. New the part
was $350 or 400. But at least that car had keyholes in the left and
right doors and the trunk lid.
 




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