Is safe online banking possible? sandbox?

On 4/15/2015 5:40 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:47:15 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/15/2015 10:54 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 03:20:52 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/14/2015 4:47 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 00:50:47 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

I can't speak for Canada or any other region of the US but that's how
it's done in the N.E. I haven't seen a wait person walk away with a card
in a long time.

I would say a majority of places handle transactions using wireless
connectivity.

And I would say the percentage is a tiny fraction of 1%, but I haven't been
everywhere.

I, personally prefer my debit card.

My perception of debit cards is that they have a single advantage over
credit cards in that people who can't qualify for a credit card can, in some
cases, qualify for a debit card by virtue of the fact that a debit card is
secured by the money you have on deposit. I'm not aware of any other
significant advantages of debit cards, so IMHO credit cards win in every
other situation. Besides being much safer, credit cards let me play with
someone else's money throughout the month rather than my own.

My credit union tells me that my ATM card can be used as a debit card, but
I'll be darned if I'm going to use a debit card when I have credit cards at
my disposal. I can be foolish, but not that foolish.

The way I see it as I explained in another post, I keep a limited
balance in my debit account so if by some means the account was
compromised a small sum would ever be tied up.

Right, but regardless of the amount, it's your money you're talking about.
With a credit card, it's not your money that's at risk. To me, that's a
significant difference.

I'm sure there is no
difference one way or the other when you get right down to it.

There are many differences between debit cards and credit cards, but the one
I mentioned above is where my head is at.

I know my situation is different from yours, but I travel for work and last
year I had over $60K in travel expenses. I book and pay up front for all of
my travel, then I get reimbursed after the travel is complete. If I were
using a debit card, I'd be paying for all of that with my own money and then
my company would reimburse me. My personal account would take a hit and then
get replenished. Obviously, I'm not going to do that because it doesn't make
sense, so I pay for everything with a credit card. Long before the credit
card bill comes due, I have the company's reimbursement on hand so when I
pay the bill, I'm paying with company money rather than with my money.

By using credit cards, my own money never enters the picture. It sits safely
off to the side, completely unaffected by any of this.

While my money is just as safe using a debit card.

I beg to differ. If you still don't see the advantages of using credit cards
versus using debit cards, then I either didn't explain it very well or
something else is going on.


To begin with the money I use is mine but it has the same protection
offered by a bank's credit card.

That's simply not true. Debit cards don't have the same protections under
law as credit cards. That much is well known.


I was assured this when I stopped in to
my bank and had them disconnect my overdraft protection. I explained my
concerns and was assured I need not take extra measure with a debit
card.

Assuming you asked the right questions, they either misspoke or you
misunderstood.


I still prefer to keep a limited balance. One time I did attempt a
large purchase of a washer and dryer at the spur of the moment so all I
had to do was make a call and the limit was lifted for that one purchase.

I guess your situation would be of the business nature and not a
personal matter. I do get to use my employers card when I am on official
business on a rare occasion. Of that I approve.

The example I gave was just one example of many. There's no scenario that I
can think of where a debit card offers an advantage over a credit card. Can
you think of any?

Actually, I can think of a few but they cast a negative light on you, so I'd
rather not go there unless invited.


I think you just don't get it. I am speaking from fact while you have
no proof to back up your claims. If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them. They come with a checking account. Probably
every checking account. I simply don't carry or use checks.

I think people consider themselves as more successful if they show a
credit card and think if you don't have one then you are incapable of
getting one. Hence the status of having a "GOLD or "PLATINUM" or what
ever feelgood name they come up with. I'm a self made man and have
enough money stashed away where I don't need to borrow any. Do you
actually think that the top 2 percent flash around their GOLD card when
they make a purchase?

On 4/15/2015 4:51 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:34:50 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/15/2015 10:31 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 03:27:06 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

I was just notified that my healthcare provider was hacked and just
about every thing about me was exposed including my S.S number and my
wage earnings.

The good news, if there is any, is that your info is probably among a few
million others, so you have a chance at security through obscurity.

I was never concerned. Google has more info about me then the NSA. I
have no secrets and nothing to hide. I'm just to old to worry about
anything any more. Born in the 40's. A youngster compared to some poster
in this group.


Remember, with age comes wisdom. Your time will come..........

My time is already here. As far as wisdom, one never has enough and
when you stop learning then it's time to roll over and pull the dirt
over your head.

My job depends on continually learning. A job that I plan on doing for
a long time into the future. Thanks for asking.

On 15/04/2015 9:31 pm, Al Drake wrote:
On 4/15/2015 11:11 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 03:11:15 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/14/2015 4:58 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:14:39 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

Another reason not to use credit card vs. debit. I' have heard of the
covers used at ATM but never at a gas station. The ones I use don't seem
like anything would fit as it's built into a console.

Not only do skimmers "fit", but they look like they belong. It's very rare
that skimmers are detected while they are in place. It's usually long after
the fact that detectives or bank employees figure out what happened, when
they correlate customer complaints.

I've never seen any gas station where you were asked for a zip code.
Nothing other than a PIN.

You're probably using a debit card. Those typically require a PIN to 'prove'
legitimate use. Credit cards typically require you to enter your billing Zip
Code.

I think the fee for something as simple as checking your balance at
an ATM is in the dollar range.

Not if you use an ATM that's in your bank's network. If you use 'foreign'
ATMs, then yes, there are usually fees involved. With a little planning and
some awareness of your surroundings, you can easily avoid ATM fees.


I've never seen a skimmer so I have to imagine how they appear.

If you go to http://images.google.com and search for credit card skimmer,
you can see lots of examples. My understanding is that they're equally
effective with debit cards.

I have
to wonder just how many there are out there. Knowing the news media it
might have happened a few times but that wouldn't play well so they have
to repeat the story.

I'd bet that there are a whole lot more that never get reported.

Why would any not get reported?

Visualizing all the consoles used I can't think how
one would fit nicely and go unnoticed.

Check out the images I suggested above. You'd have no idea that such a
device was present.

Yes, there sure are a lot of images. I don't think many people have
stopped using credit cards because of "skimmers"

I only use a debit card. I have never had a need for spending money
that isn't mine and having to pay it back and become a statistic of a
different kind of money makers. From day one when I first entered the
work force, before credit cards were invented, I have lived off what I
earn the old fashioned way.

I'm sure that was very commendable 50-80 years ago, but within the past
40-50 years I'd call it unfortunate. Still, if it works for you I can't
knock it.

What is unfortunate about it? I can't think of one time in my life
where I wished I had a credit card. You tell me, when would I need one?
Maybe I'm simply missing something.

I never use ATMs either. I never carry cash. No need. When I travel to
my vacation spot that may change however. Last year my bank told me they
are doing away with travelers checks. I guess it translates into the
same end as if you lose either you have to wait. Not sure how long though.

Traveler's checks. :-) That's a blast from the past. From the mid-1970's
until a few weeks ago, I hadn't heard a peep about Traveler's checks and I'd
assumed they were a relic from the past, but American Express recently
announced that they were retiring the whole concept. My reaction was that I
thought they had done that 40 years ago. The other major vendor of
Traveler's checks, Travelex, apparently shut down this part of their
business about 8 years ago.


Using traveler's checks had become a habit so I guess I never gave it
a second thought. Better than cash if you lose your wallet. They can be
cashed like money with no risk. If I'm taking a walk on the 7 mile beach
in Negril and I decide to stop to get something to eat I'd still rather
carry traveler's checks over a card or cash. They were always free at my
bank.




Traveller's cheques are the most expensive way of getting cash overseas.
Add to that the fact that, in Europe anyway, it is now almost impossible
to cash them other than at banks, and you can see why specialist
pre-paid cards (like FairFx, in the UK) are the most economic ways to go.

http://goo.gl/sIotGK


--
Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

You know you're old when "getting lucky" means finding your car in the
car park.

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

Do you actually think that the top 2 percent flash around their
GOLD card when they make a purchase?

What does the Queen do? She doesn't carry cash.

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:25:14 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/15/2015 5:47 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:31:31 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/15/2015 11:11 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 03:11:15 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

I don't think many people have
stopped using credit cards because of "skimmers"

Of course not, and why should they? If there's any fraud, it's fraud against
the credit card provider, not fraud against an individual, as would be the
case for people who use debit cards.

As I have learned from conversing with my bank there is no more of a
risk using a debit card than there is with a credit card.

And you don't see anything wrong with (only) asking your bank these kinds of
questions? What incentive would they have to do anything other than to
assure you that you should be using their debit card? Come on, think about
it and consider doing your own research.

On the other hand, you have a system that you're apparently happy with and
which has apparently been working for you, so more power to you. Is it the
best way? Of course not, quite obviously so, but it's easier to keep doing
what you're doing and I understand that.

If I've done my math correctly, you're in your 70's and it's way too late to
provide the basics of finance. Too late for me to be a teacher, I mean. It's
never too late for the student.

Here's where you are wrong again. You assume because I have been
around longer than you that I am somehow handicapped? I see it the other
way around son.

Please read it again. I was saying (trying to say) that I have the handicap,
not you.


--

Char Jackson

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.


--

Char Jackson

On 16/04/2015 6:51 pm, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.



Here, they are issued automatically to nearly everyone who has a bank
account. They are often used by people who don't want to pay surcharges
for using a credit card - in other words the people who know *exactly*
what the difference is, and how to make the most of their money.

--
Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

What one person receives without working for...another person must work
for without receiving.

On 4/16/2015 0:34, Al Drake wrote:
I think you just don't get it. I am speaking from fact while you have
no proof to back up your claims. If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them. They come with a checking account. Probably
every checking account. I simply don't carry or use checks.

I think people consider themselves as more successful if they show a
credit card and think if you don't have one then you are incapable of
getting one. Hence the status of having a "GOLD or "PLATINUM" or what
ever feelgood name they come up with. I'm a self made man and have
enough money stashed away where I don't need to borrow any. Do you
actually think that the top 2 percent flash around their GOLD card when
they make a purchase?

I like the juxtaposition of the second sentence in paragraph one with
all of paragraph two.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 12:51:11 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.



Yes, yes, and yes. Especially if by number 2 you mean people who run
up high balances that they can't to pay off, I think that's perhaps
the largest of the three categories

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:06:30 +0100, Bob Henson
wrote:

On 16/04/2015 6:51 pm, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.



Here, they are issued automatically to nearly everyone who has a bank
account.


Same here.


They are often used by people who don't want to pay surcharges
for using a credit card ...


I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in the USA, there are no
surcharges for using a credit card unless you use them in an ATM
machine.

There's also considerable interest on the balance you carry, but if
you are like me and use credit cards like debit cards (only charge
what you can afford to pay in full, and then pay each bill in full),
there are no interest charges either.

I've been using credit cards for almost fifty years, and I've never
paid a penny in interest. I also never use credit cards in ATM
machines (I use my bank's debit card only for that), so I've never
paid a penny in surcharges either.


... - in other words the people who know *exactly*
what the difference is, and how to make the most of their money.


I know *exactly* what the difference is, and how to make the most of
my money--by charging almost everything I buy on credit cards (no
interest payments, float on the money charged, easily canceled
unauthorized charges, airline mileage or cash back on credit card
use), and using my debit card only in ATM machines.

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake
wrote:


I think people consider themselves as more successful if they show a
credit card and think if you don't have one then you are incapable of
getting one. Hence the status of having a "GOLD or "PLATINUM" or what
ever feelgood name they come up with. I'm a self made man and have
enough money stashed away where I don't need to borrow any.



Using a credit card does *not* mean you are borrowing money. As I just
said in another message in this thread, "if you are like me and use
credit cards like debit cards (only charge what you can afford to pay
in full, and then pay each bill in full), there are no interest
charges either. I've been using credit cards for almost fifty years,
and I've never paid a penny in interest."

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.

Here in the UK debit cards are used by just about everyone, to withdraw
cash from their bank accounts.

But perhaps you meant "debit cards are used *for purchases* by:".

I use a debit card for cash withdrawals only. Oh, and for purchasing new
cars, where a credit card is probably not an option, and the amount
would exceed my credit limit anyway.

For other purchases I use a credit card, which is cheaper than cash,
because I get an automatic 1% cash refund. And I can spend without
having to check whether there's enough in my account.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On 4/16/2015 1:47 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:25:14 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/15/2015 5:47 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:31:31 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/15/2015 11:11 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 03:11:15 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

I don't think many people have
stopped using credit cards because of "skimmers"

Of course not, and why should they? If there's any fraud, it's fraud against
the credit card provider, not fraud against an individual, as would be the
case for people who use debit cards.

As I have learned from conversing with my bank there is no more of a
risk using a debit card than there is with a credit card.

And you don't see anything wrong with (only) asking your bank these kinds of
questions? What incentive would they have to do anything other than to
assure you that you should be using their debit card? Come on, think about
it and consider doing your own research.

I have thought about it. They continually try to talk me into "applying"
for a credit card. They try to sell me a loan and all kinds of ways I
can benefit from all they have to offer. I had to insist their sales
department stop call me to sell me stuff I don't need. I specifically
asked them if a credit card would be of any real advantage over my
checking/Debit account and they said there was none. They pay me a small
amount each month to have them pay my bills with one of their checks
automatically. They call it Extra20Checking.


On the other hand, you have a system that you're apparently happy with and
which has apparently been working for you, so more power to you. Is it the
best way? Of course not, quite obviously so, but it's easier to keep doing
what you're doing and I understand that.

Simply put, I just don't see any reason why I should stop using my
money and use someone the banks.

If I've done my math correctly, you're in your 70's and it's way too late to
provide the basics of finance. Too late for me to be a teacher, I mean. It's
never too late for the student.

Here's where you are wrong again. You assume because I have been
around longer than you that I am somehow handicapped? I see it the other
way around son.

Please read it again. I was saying (trying to say) that I have the handicap,
not you.


Yes, My bad.

I don't think it's too late for anyone to learn anything. I do think
it's rather comical that you think your way is something I should learn
and the idea that I need to learn the "basics of finance" from you or
anyone. Any basics would not be a need to use a credit card. Credit card
debt was the number one reason so many took a hit in this last
recession. Way to much debt. Way to much over spending.

The average American household with at least one credit card has nearly
$15,950 in credit-card debt (in 2012), according to CreditCards.com.


http://www.credit.com/debt/five-shoc...bt-statistics/

The worse thing for the economy is to not spend it and not get into debt.

On 4/16/2015 3:41 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 15/04/2015 9:31 pm, Al Drake wrote:
On 4/15/2015 11:11 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 03:11:15 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/14/2015 4:58 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:14:39 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

Another reason not to use credit card vs. debit. I' have heard of the
covers used at ATM but never at a gas station. The ones I use don't seem
like anything would fit as it's built into a console.

Not only do skimmers "fit", but they look like they belong. It's very rare
that skimmers are detected while they are in place. It's usually long after
the fact that detectives or bank employees figure out what happened, when
they correlate customer complaints.

I've never seen any gas station where you were asked for a zip code.
Nothing other than a PIN.

You're probably using a debit card. Those typically require a PIN to 'prove'
legitimate use. Credit cards typically require you to enter your billing Zip
Code.

I think the fee for something as simple as checking your balance at
an ATM is in the dollar range.

Not if you use an ATM that's in your bank's network. If you use 'foreign'
ATMs, then yes, there are usually fees involved. With a little planning and
some awareness of your surroundings, you can easily avoid ATM fees.


I've never seen a skimmer so I have to imagine how they appear.

If you go to http://images.google.com and search for credit card skimmer,
you can see lots of examples. My understanding is that they're equally
effective with debit cards.

I have
to wonder just how many there are out there. Knowing the news media it
might have happened a few times but that wouldn't play well so they have
to repeat the story.

I'd bet that there are a whole lot more that never get reported.

Why would any not get reported?

Visualizing all the consoles used I can't think how
one would fit nicely and go unnoticed.

Check out the images I suggested above. You'd have no idea that such a
device was present.

Yes, there sure are a lot of images. I don't think many people have
stopped using credit cards because of "skimmers"

I only use a debit card. I have never had a need for spending money
that isn't mine and having to pay it back and become a statistic of a
different kind of money makers. From day one when I first entered the
work force, before credit cards were invented, I have lived off what I
earn the old fashioned way.

I'm sure that was very commendable 50-80 years ago, but within the past
40-50 years I'd call it unfortunate. Still, if it works for you I can't
knock it.

What is unfortunate about it? I can't think of one time in my life
where I wished I had a credit card. You tell me, when would I need one?
Maybe I'm simply missing something.

I never use ATMs either. I never carry cash. No need. When I travel to
my vacation spot that may change however. Last year my bank told me they
are doing away with travelers checks. I guess it translates into the
same end as if you lose either you have to wait. Not sure how long though.

Traveler's checks. :-) That's a blast from the past. From the mid-1970's
until a few weeks ago, I hadn't heard a peep about Traveler's checks and I'd
assumed they were a relic from the past, but American Express recently
announced that they were retiring the whole concept. My reaction was that I
thought they had done that 40 years ago. The other major vendor of
Traveler's checks, Travelex, apparently shut down this part of their
business about 8 years ago.


Using traveler's checks had become a habit so I guess I never gave it
a second thought. Better than cash if you lose your wallet. They can be
cashed like money with no risk. If I'm taking a walk on the 7 mile beach
in Negril and I decide to stop to get something to eat I'd still rather
carry traveler's checks over a card or cash. They were always free at my
bank.




Traveller's cheques are the most expensive way of getting cash overseas.
Add to that the fact that, in Europe anyway, it is now almost impossible
to cash them other than at banks, and you can see why specialist
pre-paid cards (like FairFx, in the UK) are the most economic ways to go.

http://goo.gl/sIotGK


I can understand why traveler's checks are being discontinued. When I
travel there is a fee at most places. I could get them for free from my
bank and exchange them for free at my hotel. Otherwise, yes, they can be
costly. They posed no risk as far as I know. However there doesn't seem
to be any fees the rare times I use them at my regular vacation spot.
That might be because I travel there off season and most people know me
personally.

Either way it looks like no one will be using them any more.

On 4/16/2015 6:16 AM, mechanic wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

Do you actually think that the top 2 percent flash around their
GOLD card when they make a purchase?

What does the Queen do? She doesn't carry cash.

I'm sure she does no shopping or purchasing. Do you think she has a
Royal Gold card stuffed away somewhere?