Is safe online banking possible? sandbox?

On 4/16/2015 1:51 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.


So you consider I am one of the above?

On 4/16/2015 8:25 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:39:04 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/15/2015 4:51 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:34:50 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/15/2015 10:31 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 03:27:06 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

I was just notified that my healthcare provider was hacked and just
about every thing about me was exposed including my S.S number and my
wage earnings.

The good news, if there is any, is that your info is probably among a few
million others, so you have a chance at security through obscurity.

I was never concerned. Google has more info about me then the NSA. I
have no secrets and nothing to hide. I'm just to old to worry about
anything any more. Born in the 40's. A youngster compared to some poster
in this group.


Remember, with age comes wisdom. Your time will come..........

My time is already here. As far as wisdom, one never has enough and
when you stop learning then it's time to roll over and pull the dirt
over your head.

My job depends on continually learning. A job that I plan on doing for
a long time into the future. Thanks for asking.


Mea culpa. I should have used a smiley face such as ;-) . I felt it was implied
as I was gently returning friendly fire.

Not to misunderstand me, I was simply bragging in my reply. No fire
anywhere that I can see.

Al Drake wrote:
On 4/16/2015 3:41 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 15/04/2015 9:31 pm, Al Drake wrote:
On 4/15/2015 11:11 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 03:11:15 -0400, Al Drake
wrote:

On 4/14/2015 4:58 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:14:39 -0400, Al Drake
wrote:

Another reason not to use credit card vs. debit. I' have heard of
the
covers used at ATM but never at a gas station. The ones I use
don't seem
like anything would fit as it's built into a console.

Not only do skimmers "fit", but they look like they belong. It's
very rare
that skimmers are detected while they are in place. It's usually
long after
the fact that detectives or bank employees figure out what
happened, when
they correlate customer complaints.

I've never seen any gas station where you were asked for a
zip code.
Nothing other than a PIN.

You're probably using a debit card. Those typically require a PIN
to 'prove'
legitimate use. Credit cards typically require you to enter your
billing Zip
Code.

I think the fee for something as simple as checking your
balance at
an ATM is in the dollar range.

Not if you use an ATM that's in your bank's network. If you use
'foreign'
ATMs, then yes, there are usually fees involved. With a little
planning and
some awareness of your surroundings, you can easily avoid ATM fees.


I've never seen a skimmer so I have to imagine how they appear.

If you go to http://images.google.com and search for credit card
skimmer,
you can see lots of examples. My understanding is that they're equally
effective with debit cards.

I have
to wonder just how many there are out there. Knowing the news media it
might have happened a few times but that wouldn't play well so they
have
to repeat the story.

I'd bet that there are a whole lot more that never get reported.

Why would any not get reported?

Visualizing all the consoles used I can't think how
one would fit nicely and go unnoticed.

Check out the images I suggested above. You'd have no idea that such a
device was present.

Yes, there sure are a lot of images. I don't think many people have
stopped using credit cards because of "skimmers"

I only use a debit card. I have never had a need for spending money
that isn't mine and having to pay it back and become a statistic of a
different kind of money makers. From day one when I first entered the
work force, before credit cards were invented, I have lived off what I
earn the old fashioned way.

I'm sure that was very commendable 50-80 years ago, but within the past
40-50 years I'd call it unfortunate. Still, if it works for you I can't
knock it.

What is unfortunate about it? I can't think of one time in my life
where I wished I had a credit card. You tell me, when would I need one?
Maybe I'm simply missing something.

I never use ATMs either. I never carry cash. No need. When I
travel to
my vacation spot that may change however. Last year my bank told me
they
are doing away with travelers checks. I guess it translates into the
same end as if you lose either you have to wait. Not sure how long
though.

Traveler's checks. :-) That's a blast from the past. From the
mid-1970's
until a few weeks ago, I hadn't heard a peep about Traveler's checks
and I'd
assumed they were a relic from the past, but American Express recently
announced that they were retiring the whole concept. My reaction was
that I
thought they had done that 40 years ago. The other major vendor of
Traveler's checks, Travelex, apparently shut down this part of their
business about 8 years ago.


Using traveler's checks had become a habit so I guess I never gave it
a second thought. Better than cash if you lose your wallet. They can be
cashed like money with no risk. If I'm taking a walk on the 7 mile beach
in Negril and I decide to stop to get something to eat I'd still rather
carry traveler's checks over a card or cash. They were always free at my
bank.




Traveller's cheques are the most expensive way of getting cash overseas.
Add to that the fact that, in Europe anyway, it is now almost impossible
to cash them other than at banks, and you can see why specialist
pre-paid cards (like FairFx, in the UK) are the most economic ways to
go.

http://goo.gl/sIotGK


I can understand why traveler's checks are being discontinued. When I
travel there is a fee at most places. I could get them for free from my
bank and exchange them for free at my hotel. Otherwise, yes, they can be
costly. They posed no risk as far as I know. However there doesn't seem
to be any fees the rare times I use them at my regular vacation spot.
That might be because I travel there off season and most people know me
personally.

Either way it looks like no one will be using them any more.


Free travelers checks with an AMEX credit card. g

--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On 4/16/2015 2:35 PM, Gene Bloch wrote:
On 4/16/2015 0:34, Al Drake wrote:
I think you just don't get it. I am speaking from fact while you have
no proof to back up your claims. If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them. They come with a checking account. Probably
every checking account. I simply don't carry or use checks.

I think people consider themselves as more successful if they show a
credit card and think if you don't have one then you are incapable of
getting one. Hence the status of having a "GOLD or "PLATINUM" or what
ever feelgood name they come up with. I'm a self made man and have
enough money stashed away where I don't need to borrow any. Do you
actually think that the top 2 percent flash around their GOLD card when
they make a purchase?

I like the juxtaposition of the second sentence in paragraph one with
all of paragraph two.

A problem with having no credit card accounts is that a person's credit
rating can be non-existent.

On 4/16/2015 4:51 PM, Al Drake wrote:
On 4/16/2015 1:51 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.


So you consider I am one of the above?


I disagree with the most typically - - -
Most often, for convenience, I use a debt card, usually for small
purchases. Others, such as periodic payments, go to the credit card.
The secret is to keep the credit card balance low, and pay it off before
interest gets charged.

On 4/16/2015 18:57, Charlie wrote:
On 4/16/2015 2:35 PM, Gene Bloch wrote:
On 4/16/2015 0:34, Al Drake wrote:
I think you just don't get it. I am speaking from fact while you have
no proof to back up your claims. If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them. They come with a checking account. Probably
every checking account. I simply don't carry or use checks.

I think people consider themselves as more successful if they show a
credit card and think if you don't have one then you are incapable of
getting one. Hence the status of having a "GOLD or "PLATINUM" or what
ever feelgood name they come up with. I'm a self made man and have
enough money stashed away where I don't need to borrow any. Do you
actually think that the top 2 percent flash around their GOLD card when
they make a purchase?

I like the juxtaposition of the second sentence in paragraph one with
all of paragraph two.

A problem with having no credit card accounts is that a person's credit
rating can be non-existent.

Let me explain to you what I meant:

Al drake said these two things in successive paragraphs:

"I am speaking from fact..." and

"I think people consider themselves as more successful if (etc)...".

I see the second statement as directly contradicting the first.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:06:30 +0100, Bob Henson wrote:

On 16/04/2015 6:51 pm, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.



Here, they are issued automatically to nearly everyone who has a bank
account.

Here in the States, as well. I have one for each of my banks and all have
never been used as a debit card. I use them as ATM cards every now and then.

They are often used by people who don't want to pay surcharges
for using a credit card - in other words the people who know *exactly*
what the difference is, and how to make the most of their money.

Like Ken Blake said, if you act wisely and responsibly, you should *never*
have to pay any surcharges or interest or other fees for using a credit
card. I'm speaking of the situation here in the States. It might be a
different story where you are.

--

Char Jackson

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:41:13 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 12:51:11 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.



Yes, yes, and yes. Especially if by number 2 you mean people who run
up high balances that they can't to pay off, I think that's perhaps
the largest of the three categories

Yes, you nailed it.

--

Char Jackson

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:54:28 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:06:30 +0100, Bob Henson
wrote:

On 16/04/2015 6:51 pm, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.



Here, they are issued automatically to nearly everyone who has a bank
account.


Same here.


They are often used by people who don't want to pay surcharges
for using a credit card ...


I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in the USA, there are no
surcharges for using a credit card unless you use them in an ATM
machine.

There's also considerable interest on the balance you carry, but if
you are like me and use credit cards like debit cards (only charge
what you can afford to pay in full, and then pay each bill in full),
there are no interest charges either.

I've been using credit cards for almost fifty years, and I've never
paid a penny in interest. I also never use credit cards in ATM
machines (I use my bank's debit card only for that), so I've never
paid a penny in surcharges either.


... - in other words the people who know *exactly*
what the difference is, and how to make the most of their money.


I know *exactly* what the difference is, and how to make the most of
my money--by charging almost everything I buy on credit cards (no
interest payments, float on the money charged, easily canceled
unauthorized charges, airline mileage or cash back on credit card
use), and using my debit card only in ATM machines.

It's like I have a twin. :-)

Ditto to everything you said above. Like you, I've been using credit cards
all of my adult life and I pay the balance in full every month, so there's
never an interest charge or other fee/surcharge.

Personal finances are like a game, but a game with consequences. People who
don't learn how to play the game are at a financial disadvantage.

--

Char Jackson

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 20:15:35 +0100, Mike Barnes
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.

Here in the UK debit cards are used by just about everyone, to withdraw
cash from their bank accounts.

Here in the States, there used to be a concept of a debit card and an ATM
card, but more and more those two functions are combined into a single card.
So yes, I have a debit card from each bank where I have an account, but I've
never used them as debit cards (to make purchases), although on an irregular
basis I do use one of them as an ATM card.

But perhaps you meant "debit cards are used *for purchases* by:".

Yep. Thanks for the clarification.

I use a debit card for cash withdrawals only. Oh, and for purchasing new
cars, where a credit card is probably not an option, and the amount
would exceed my credit limit anyway.

For other purchases I use a credit card, which is cheaper than cash,
because I get an automatic 1% cash refund. And I can spend without
having to check whether there's enough in my account.

Exactly.

--

Char Jackson

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:39:13 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

I don't think it's too late for anyone to learn anything. I do think
it's rather comical that you think your way is something I should learn
and the idea that I need to learn the "basics of finance" from you or
anyone. Any basics would not be a need to use a credit card. Credit card
debt was the number one reason so many took a hit in this last
recession. Way to much debt. Way to much over spending.

Please don't confuse use of a credit card with credit card debt. I'm very
heavy on the first part, but zero on the second part. I don't charge more
than I can pay in full every month.

The average American household with at least one credit card has nearly
$15,950 in credit-card debt (in 2012), according to CreditCards.com.

http://www.credit.com/debt/five-shoc...bt-statistics/

Here's a slightly more recent article, also from credit.com, that says the
average credit card balance is under $3800 as of 2013. By my rough math,
that's almost 75% reduction in just one year, but I did that in my head so
it's probably wrong.

http://www.credit.com/debt/average-credit-card-debt/

Having said that, I place very little faith in such reports because they're
based on credit card *balances*. As a result, they don't consider people who
pay off their balance in full every month. Depending on the time of the
month that you check my credit card balance, you might find it anywhere
between $2K and well over $15K, but if you check it right after the payment
due date it will always be zero.

The worse thing for the economy is to not spend it and not get into debt.

??

--

Char Jackson

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:51:40 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/16/2015 1:51 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.


So you consider I am one of the above?

You've painted yourself to be in the third category. I have no idea how
accurate that portrayal might be.

I've also left room, by virtue of my "most typically" weasel words, that you
could be in an unnamed category. You would know better than me. I was
(hopefully) speaking objectively and meant no offense.

--

Char Jackson

On 4/16/2015 11:44 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:39:13 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

I don't think it's too late for anyone to learn anything. I do think
it's rather comical that you think your way is something I should learn
and the idea that I need to learn the "basics of finance" from you or
anyone. Any basics would not be a need to use a credit card. Credit card
debt was the number one reason so many took a hit in this last
recession. Way to much debt. Way to much over spending.

Please don't confuse use of a credit card with credit card debt. I'm very
heavy on the first part, but zero on the second part. I don't charge more
than I can pay in full every month.

The average American household with at least one credit card has nearly
$15,950 in credit-card debt (in 2012), according to CreditCards.com.

http://www.credit.com/debt/five-shoc...bt-statistics/

Here's a slightly more recent article, also from credit.com, that says the
average credit card balance is under $3800 as of 2013. By my rough math,
that's almost 75% reduction in just one year, but I did that in my head so
it's probably wrong.

http://www.credit.com/debt/average-credit-card-debt/

Having said that, I place very little faith in such reports because they're
based on credit card *balances*. As a result, they don't consider people who
pay off their balance in full every month. Depending on the time of the
month that you check my credit card balance, you might find it anywhere
between $2K and well over $15K, but if you check it right after the payment
due date it will always be zero.

The worse thing for the economy is to not spend it and not get into debt.

??

So you know nothing of the economy or financing after all. This is a
consumer based economy driven by spending. The quicker you spend what
you earn the faster it grows. Until it bursts like an over inflated
balloon like it always does. If everyone saved what they earned things
would slow way down. Need I continue?

Who's the teacher now?

On 4/16/2015 6:41 PM, . . .winston wrote:
Al Drake wrote:
On 4/16/2015 3:41 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 15/04/2015 9:31 pm, Al Drake wrote:
On 4/15/2015 11:11 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 03:11:15 -0400, Al Drake
wrote:

On 4/14/2015 4:58 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:14:39 -0400, Al Drake
wrote:

Another reason not to use credit card vs. debit. I' have heard of
the
covers used at ATM but never at a gas station. The ones I use
don't seem
like anything would fit as it's built into a console.

Not only do skimmers "fit", but they look like they belong. It's
very rare
that skimmers are detected while they are in place. It's usually
long after
the fact that detectives or bank employees figure out what
happened, when
they correlate customer complaints.

I've never seen any gas station where you were asked for a
zip code.
Nothing other than a PIN.

You're probably using a debit card. Those typically require a PIN
to 'prove'
legitimate use. Credit cards typically require you to enter your
billing Zip
Code.

I think the fee for something as simple as checking your
balance at
an ATM is in the dollar range.

Not if you use an ATM that's in your bank's network. If you use
'foreign'
ATMs, then yes, there are usually fees involved. With a little
planning and
some awareness of your surroundings, you can easily avoid ATM fees.


I've never seen a skimmer so I have to imagine how they appear.

If you go to http://images.google.com and search for credit card
skimmer,
you can see lots of examples. My understanding is that they're equally
effective with debit cards.

I have
to wonder just how many there are out there. Knowing the news
media it
might have happened a few times but that wouldn't play well so they
have
to repeat the story.

I'd bet that there are a whole lot more that never get reported.

Why would any not get reported?

Visualizing all the consoles used I can't think how
one would fit nicely and go unnoticed.

Check out the images I suggested above. You'd have no idea that such a
device was present.

Yes, there sure are a lot of images. I don't think many people have
stopped using credit cards because of "skimmers"

I only use a debit card. I have never had a need for spending
money
that isn't mine and having to pay it back and become a statistic of a
different kind of money makers. From day one when I first entered the
work force, before credit cards were invented, I have lived off
what I
earn the old fashioned way.

I'm sure that was very commendable 50-80 years ago, but within the
past
40-50 years I'd call it unfortunate. Still, if it works for you I
can't
knock it.

What is unfortunate about it? I can't think of one time in my life
where I wished I had a credit card. You tell me, when would I need one?
Maybe I'm simply missing something.

I never use ATMs either. I never carry cash. No need. When I
travel to
my vacation spot that may change however. Last year my bank told me
they
are doing away with travelers checks. I guess it translates into the
same end as if you lose either you have to wait. Not sure how long
though.

Traveler's checks. :-) That's a blast from the past. From the
mid-1970's
until a few weeks ago, I hadn't heard a peep about Traveler's checks
and I'd
assumed they were a relic from the past, but American Express recently
announced that they were retiring the whole concept. My reaction was
that I
thought they had done that 40 years ago. The other major vendor of
Traveler's checks, Travelex, apparently shut down this part of their
business about 8 years ago.


Using traveler's checks had become a habit so I guess I never
gave it
a second thought. Better than cash if you lose your wallet. They can be
cashed like money with no risk. If I'm taking a walk on the 7 mile
beach
in Negril and I decide to stop to get something to eat I'd still rather
carry traveler's checks over a card or cash. They were always free
at my
bank.




Traveller's cheques are the most expensive way of getting cash overseas.
Add to that the fact that, in Europe anyway, it is now almost impossible
to cash them other than at banks, and you can see why specialist
pre-paid cards (like FairFx, in the UK) are the most economic ways to
go.

http://goo.gl/sIotGK


I can understand why traveler's checks are being discontinued. When I
travel there is a fee at most places. I could get them for free from my
bank and exchange them for free at my hotel. Otherwise, yes, they can be
costly. They posed no risk as far as I know. However there doesn't seem
to be any fees the rare times I use them at my regular vacation spot.
That might be because I travel there off season and most people know me
personally.

Either way it looks like no one will be using them any more.


Free travelers checks with an AMEX credit card. g


My bank is owned by Banco Santander Spain. They have what they call
"Travel Money"

http://www.santander.co.uk/uk/curren...g-travel-money

On 4/16/2015 10:01 PM, Charlie wrote:
On 4/16/2015 4:51 PM, Al Drake wrote:
On 4/16/2015 1:51 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of
cards.


So you consider I am one of the above?


I disagree with the most typically - - -
Most often, for convenience, I use a debt card, usually for small
purchases. Others, such as periodic payments, go to the credit card.
The secret is to keep the credit card balance low, and pay it off before
interest gets charged.

Exactly the way I see it. My regular operating expenses are on
auto-pay. What little I spend outside of that I use my DC or when I buy
a new car I give them a back check. Never a need to finance a thing.
Never a need for a credit card. I already have everything I ever wanted.