Is safe online banking possible? sandbox?

On 4/16/2015 11:47 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:51:40 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/16/2015 1:51 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.


So you consider I am one of the above?

You've painted yourself to be in the third category. I have no idea how
accurate that portrayal might be.

I've also left room, by virtue of my "most typically" weasel words, that you
could be in an unnamed category. You would know better than me. I was
(hopefully) speaking objectively and meant no offense.

No offense. I am never offended by those that know so little and
assume so much. You claim I don't know the difference simply because I
don't do it your way. Somehow in your mind everyone else has it wrong.

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:54:28 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:06:30 +0100, Bob Henson
wrote:

On 16/04/2015 6:51 pm, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.



Here, they are issued automatically to nearly everyone who has a bank
account.


Same here.


They are often used by people who don't want to pay surcharges
for using a credit card ...


I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in the USA, there are no
surcharges for using a credit card unless you use them in an ATM
machine.

There's also considerable interest on the balance you carry, but if
you are like me and use credit cards like debit cards (only charge
what you can afford to pay in full, and then pay each bill in full),
there are no interest charges either.

I've been using credit cards for almost fifty years, and I've never
paid a penny in interest. I also never use credit cards in ATM
machines (I use my bank's debit card only for that), so I've never
paid a penny in surcharges either.


... - in other words the people who know *exactly*
what the difference is, and how to make the most of their money.


I know *exactly* what the difference is, and how to make the most of
my money--by charging almost everything I buy on credit cards (no
interest payments, float on the money charged, easily canceled
unauthorized charges, airline mileage or cash back on credit card
use), and using my debit card only in ATM machines.

It's like I have a twin. :-)

Ditto to everything you said above. Like you, I've been using credit cards
all of my adult life and I pay the balance in full every month, so there's
never an interest charge or other fee/surcharge.

Personal finances are like a game, but a game with consequences. People who
don't learn how to play the game are at a financial disadvantage.


Triplets.

Cash Flow often gets left out the Debit vs Credit Card discussion. Part
of the game is keeping funds in one's pocket as long as possible. Money
depreciates over time. Even though credit card payments typically are
once/month (some CC's cycle at 45 days) that short term borrowed debt
(at 0% interest when 100% balance payed off when due) is always being
paid off with a depreciated asset.

--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

Char Jackson wrote:
Depending on the time of the month that you check my credit card
balance, you might find it anywhere between $2K and well over $15K,
but if you check it right after the payment due date it will always
be zero.

That doesn't sound right, unless things work very differently where you
are. My card balance is paid off automatically every month on the
payment due date (19th), but it's the balance from the previous
statement (5th) that's paid, not the balance at the payment date. So
after each payment, the new balance is the total of the purchases that
I've made since the statement date. I observe that on my statement every
month.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Al Drake wrote:
On 4/16/2015 11:44 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:39:13 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

I don't think it's too late for anyone to learn anything. I do think
it's rather comical that you think your way is something I should learn
and the idea that I need to learn the "basics of finance" from you or
anyone. Any basics would not be a need to use a credit card. Credit card
debt was the number one reason so many took a hit in this last
recession. Way to much debt. Way to much over spending.

Please don't confuse use of a credit card with credit card debt. I'm very
heavy on the first part, but zero on the second part. I don't charge more
than I can pay in full every month.

The average American household with at least one credit card has nearly
$15,950 in credit-card debt (in 2012), according to CreditCards.com.

http://www.credit.com/debt/five-shoc...bt-statistics/

Here's a slightly more recent article, also from credit.com, that says
the
average credit card balance is under $3800 as of 2013. By my rough math,
that's almost 75% reduction in just one year, but I did that in my
head so
it's probably wrong.

http://www.credit.com/debt/average-credit-card-debt/

Having said that, I place very little faith in such reports because
they're
based on credit card *balances*. As a result, they don't consider
people who
pay off their balance in full every month. Depending on the time of the
month that you check my credit card balance, you might find it anywhere
between $2K and well over $15K, but if you check it right after the
payment
due date it will always be zero.

The worse thing for the economy is to not spend it and not get into
debt.

??

So you know nothing of the economy or financing after all. This is a
consumer based economy driven by spending. The quicker you spend what
you earn the faster it grows. Until it bursts like an over inflated
balloon like it always does. If everyone saved what they earned things
would slow way down. Need I continue?

Who's the teacher now?


Imo, you aren't teaching, just attempting to debate a very narrow view.

Saving doesn't mean it's not earning.

And yes, you shouldn't continue.


--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On 16/04/2015 7:54 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:06:30 +0100, Bob Henson
wrote:

On 16/04/2015 6:51 pm, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.



Here, they are issued automatically to nearly everyone who has a bank
account.


Same here.


They are often used by people who don't want to pay surcharges
for using a credit card ...


I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in the USA, there are no
surcharges for using a credit card unless you use them in an ATM
machine.


Surcharges are frequent here - holiday companies, airlines, some online
retailers, mobile phone companies, travel money companies charge extra
to use a credit card over a debit card. The worst, some years back, was
when a Suzuki car dealer wanted to charge me nearly £600 to buy a new
car with my credit card - a quick phone call to my bank (in those days -
mobile app now) moved money into my current account, and I used my debit
card for no fee. The ones that don't charge most likely cost it into
their prices, which I'm sure is the case in the USA too (albeit they're
not going to tell you) - there's no such thing as a free lunch, as you
say on your side of the Big Pond.


There's also considerable interest on the balance you carry, but if
you are like me and use credit cards like debit cards (only charge
what you can afford to pay in full, and then pay each bill in full),
there are no interest charges either.


I do the same.

I've been using credit cards for almost fifty years, and I've never
paid a penny in interest. I also never use credit cards in ATM
machines (I use my bank's debit card only for that), so I've never
paid a penny in surcharges either.


That's what I was saying - using your bank debit card is the savvy way
to get cash and quite a few other things too. Overseas, of course, a
specialist pre-paid card is usually cheaper than the debit card.



... - in other words the people who know *exactly*
what the difference is, and how to make the most of their money.


I know *exactly* what the difference is, and how to make the most of
my money--by charging almost everything I buy on credit cards (no
interest payments, float on the money charged, easily canceled
unauthorized charges, airline mileage or cash back on credit card
use), and using my debit card only in ATM machines.


That's more or less my procedure, except the debit card often save me
paying the aforementioned credit card surcharges. Much of the advantage
of the credit cards has been lost since the bank interest rates went
down to nearly zero - the credit is no longer very valuable - but the
cashback is quite substantial so they're still a good deal.

--
Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

No, I haven't got a personality disorder - all three of us are just fine!

". . .winston" wrote in message
...
Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:54:28 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:06:30 +0100, Bob Henson
wrote:

On 16/04/2015 6:51 pm, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake
wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of
cards.



Here, they are issued automatically to nearly everyone who has a bank
account.


Same here.


They are often used by people who don't want to pay surcharges
for using a credit card ...


I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in the USA, there are no
surcharges for using a credit card unless you use them in an ATM
machine.

There's also considerable interest on the balance you carry, but if
you are like me and use credit cards like debit cards (only charge
what you can afford to pay in full, and then pay each bill in full),
there are no interest charges either.

I've been using credit cards for almost fifty years, and I've never
paid a penny in interest. I also never use credit cards in ATM
machines (I use my bank's debit card only for that), so I've never
paid a penny in surcharges either.


... - in other words the people who know *exactly*
what the difference is, and how to make the most of their money.


I know *exactly* what the difference is, and how to make the most of
my money--by charging almost everything I buy on credit cards (no
interest payments, float on the money charged, easily canceled
unauthorized charges, airline mileage or cash back on credit card
use), and using my debit card only in ATM machines.

It's like I have a twin. :-)

Ditto to everything you said above. Like you, I've been using credit
cards
all of my adult life and I pay the balance in full every month, so
there's
never an interest charge or other fee/surcharge.

Personal finances are like a game, but a game with consequences. People
who
don't learn how to play the game are at a financial disadvantage.


Triplets.

Cash Flow often gets left out the Debit vs Credit Card discussion. Part of
the game is keeping funds in one's pocket as long as possible. Money
depreciates over time. Even though credit card payments typically are
once/month (some CC's cycle at 45 days) that short term borrowed debt (at
0% interest when 100% balance payed off when due) is always being paid off
with a depreciated asset.


Quadruplets :-)

In my younger days back in the 60's, I got into a little trouble with my
credit card when my wife and I used it for everything, and then the auto
industry crashed and we were laid off forever. After finally getting it paid
off, I, like others here, have never paid a penny in interest. When debit
cards were offered, I grabbed one, knowing that I then couldn't spend more
than I had (I opted out of the ridiculously expensive overdraft protection).
So now I only use my debit card at the ATM for cash, and at the gas station
I use since they now charge about 7 to 10¢ per gallon more for CC vs. DC or
cash purchases, and my credit card for everything else.
--
SC Tom

| So you know nothing of the economy or financing after all. This is a
| consumer based economy driven by spending. The quicker you spend what
| you earn the faster it grows. Until it bursts like an over inflated
| balloon like it always does. If everyone saved what they earned things
| would slow way down. Need I continue?
|

How delightfully heretical.

It's odd how even economists don't seem to see
the problem with the logic of constant growth being
needed for a healthy economy. Though it shouldn't
be ignored that the growth is really to benefit the
rich.

Imagine a village that needs to harvest 2 tons
of nuts each year to feed everyone. The people have
done it routinely for centuries. Then a "business genius"
comes along and decides to coerce others into collecting
extra nuts, which he carefully stores, in preparation
for the next time there's a flood that spoils the nut
store. No one lingers to "smell the roses" any longer.
People all spend their free time collecting more nuts for
the genius. They're climbing a newly discovered "ladder
of success".

The flood eventually comes. The genius makes
a killing selling his own stock of nuts for "an arm and a
leg". He then branches out, selling to neighboring tribes
while hiring thugs to keep his employees in line. He gets
everyone to agree that anyone who doesn't work for him
shouldn't get any nuts at all. Not even from the community
store they helped to collect. That would be socialism,
which is simply wrong. Come to think of it, the community
store should be taxed, to provide grants for geniuses starting
businesses.

The genius goes on Charlie Rose to be worshipped and
asked about how he became such a remarkable genius.
He writes a book called "Crumbs of My Genius". He opens
a business school to teach others about how to be a genius.
(And to make them franchisees.)

At the next Charlie Rose appearance some wiseguy points
out that the genius has spent his whole life rushing around,
managing his nut business. The wiseguy points out that
"you can't take it with you"....
What an idiot!

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 03:20:37 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/16/2015 11:47 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:51:40 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

On 4/16/2015 1:51 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of cards.


So you consider I am one of the above?

You've painted yourself to be in the third category. I have no idea how
accurate that portrayal might be.

I've also left room, by virtue of my "most typically" weasel words, that you
could be in an unnamed category. You would know better than me. I was
(hopefully) speaking objectively and meant no offense.

No offense. I am never offended by those that know so little and
assume so much. You claim I don't know the difference simply because I
don't do it your way. Somehow in your mind everyone else has it wrong.

A small correction, if I may. You've said multiple times in this thread that
*you* don't see the difference. I simply took you at your word. If I was
wrong to trust you, I apologize.

--

Char Jackson

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 08:38:45 +0100, Mike Barnes
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
Depending on the time of the month that you check my credit card
balance, you might find it anywhere between $2K and well over $15K,
but if you check it right after the payment due date it will always
be zero.

That doesn't sound right, unless things work very differently where you
are. My card balance is paid off automatically every month on the
payment due date (19th), but it's the balance from the previous
statement (5th) that's paid, not the balance at the payment date. So
after each payment, the new balance is the total of the purchases that
I've made since the statement date. I observe that on my statement every
month.

I may have said it awkwardly, but I was referring to the balance from the
previous statement, as you described above.

--

Char Jackson

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 03:29:09 -0400, ". . .winston"
wrote:

Triplets.

Cash Flow often gets left out the Debit vs Credit Card discussion. Part
of the game is keeping funds in one's pocket as long as possible. Money
depreciates over time. Even though credit card payments typically are
once/month (some CC's cycle at 45 days) that short term borrowed debt
(at 0% interest when 100% balance payed off when due) is always being
paid off with a depreciated asset.

Good point. As you said, it's often overlooked.

--

Char Jackson

| An idiot? The genius gets satisfaction from his endeavors

You seem to have missed the whole point.
(Starting with which man was the idiot.)
I'm afraid I wouldn't know where to start in
explaining it, especially if you regard smelling
roses as a "waste of time" because there's
no ROI to calculate.

SC Tom wrote:


". . .winston" wrote in message
...
Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:54:28 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:06:30 +0100, Bob Henson
wrote:

On 16/04/2015 6:51 pm, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 03:34:54 -0400, Al Drake
wrote:

If debit cards were so risky then no
one would be using them.

Most typically, debit cards are used by:
- People who can't get a credit card.
- People who can't manage a credit card.
- People who don't know the differences between the two types of
cards.



Here, they are issued automatically to nearly everyone who has a bank
account.


Same here.


They are often used by people who don't want to pay surcharges
for using a credit card ...


I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in the USA, there are no
surcharges for using a credit card unless you use them in an ATM
machine.

There's also considerable interest on the balance you carry, but if
you are like me and use credit cards like debit cards (only charge
what you can afford to pay in full, and then pay each bill in full),
there are no interest charges either.

I've been using credit cards for almost fifty years, and I've never
paid a penny in interest. I also never use credit cards in ATM
machines (I use my bank's debit card only for that), so I've never
paid a penny in surcharges either.


... - in other words the people who know *exactly*
what the difference is, and how to make the most of their money.


I know *exactly* what the difference is, and how to make the most of
my money--by charging almost everything I buy on credit cards (no
interest payments, float on the money charged, easily canceled
unauthorized charges, airline mileage or cash back on credit card
use), and using my debit card only in ATM machines.

It's like I have a twin. :-)

Ditto to everything you said above. Like you, I've been using credit
cards
all of my adult life and I pay the balance in full every month, so
there's
never an interest charge or other fee/surcharge.

Personal finances are like a game, but a game with consequences.
People who
don't learn how to play the game are at a financial disadvantage.


Triplets.

Cash Flow often gets left out the Debit vs Credit Card discussion.
Part of the game is keeping funds in one's pocket as long as
possible. Money depreciates over time. Even though credit card
payments typically are once/month (some CC's cycle at 45 days) that
short term borrowed debt (at 0% interest when 100% balance payed off
when due) is always being paid off with a depreciated asset.


Quadruplets :-)

In my younger days back in the 60's, I got into a little trouble with my
credit card when my wife and I used it for everything, and then the auto
industry crashed and we were laid off forever. After finally getting it
paid off, I, like others here, have never paid a penny in interest. When
debit cards were offered, I grabbed one, knowing that I then couldn't
spend more than I had (I opted out of the ridiculously expensive
overdraft protection). So now I only use my debit card at the ATM for
cash, and at the gas station I use since they now charge about 7 to 10¢
per gallon more for CC vs. DC or cash purchases, and my credit card for
everything else.

?
You might have went to the wrong delivery room. g

Afaics, the twins and triplets were in reference to credit card usage
and paying the balance due in full each billing cycle. Not about
supporting debit card use.

Not all gas stations charge more but it is becoming the norm. In the
same light, there are credit cards that provide 1,2,and 5% award on gas
purchase, while other cards provide the same rotating gas with other
purchases (e.g. home improvement, entertainment, etc.).



--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 22:27:16 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:54:28 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

I know *exactly* what the difference is, and how to make the most of
my money--by charging almost everything I buy on credit cards (no
interest payments, float on the money charged, easily canceled
unauthorized charges, airline mileage or cash back on credit card
use), and using my debit card only in ATM machines.

It's like I have a twin. :-)


LOL! We sometimes disagree, but I think we agree more often than not.



Ditto to everything you said above. Like you, I've been using credit cards
all of my adult life and I pay the balance in full every month, so there's
never an interest charge or other fee/surcharge.



Yes, I just read the message you posted saying much the same thing.

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 07:34:50 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:


So now I only use my debit card at the ATM for cash, and at the gas station
I use since they now charge about 7 to 10¢ per gallon more for CC vs. DC or
cash purchases, and my credit card for everything else.


I just spent $1.47 at a grocery store, and charged it on a credit
card. Probably not many of you quadruplets would have done that.

I didn't have any change and I didn't want to give them $2 and have to
carry around 53¢ in my pocket.

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 08:56:20 +0100, Bob Henson
wrote:

On 16/04/2015 7:54 pm, Ken Blake wrote:


I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in the USA, there are no
surcharges for using a credit card unless you use them in an ATM
machine.


Surcharges are frequent here - holiday companies, airlines, some online
retailers, mobile phone companies, travel money companies charge extra
to use a credit card over a debit card.


Interesting, thanks. I didn't know that.