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PC won't stop
Hello All!
I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs even if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power switch on the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without any apparent problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out the USB connector from the hub also shuts down the machine. Has anyone any suggestions? -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
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#2
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PC won't stop
"James Silverton" wrote in message
... I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs even if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power switch on the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without any apparent problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out the USB connector from the hub also shuts down the machine. Has anyone any suggestions? Standard methods used to include: 1. Removing or disabling all external devices (USB, Firewire etc.) before shutdown. 2. Removing USB devices via keyboard (usually via Systray icon that shows USB devices present.) These standard methods were necessary under Win98 and support for them continued under WinXP out of prudence: (before pulling the plug on an external drive, we get confirmation from the OS that all read or write operations have completed.) It would take no time to test whether thus removing the USB hub enables normal shutdown. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
#3
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PC won't stop
Don wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:47:54 -0400:
I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs even if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power switch on the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without any apparent problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out the USB connector from the hub also shuts down the machine. Has anyone any suggestions? Standard methods used to include: 1. Removing or disabling all external devices (USB, Firewire etc.) before shutdown. 2. Removing USB devices via keyboard (usually via Systray icon that shows USB devices present.) These standard methods were necessary under Win98 and support for them continued under WinXP out of prudence: (before pulling the plug on an external drive, we get confirmation from the OS that all read or write operations have completed.) It would take no time to test whether thus removing the USB hub enables normal shutdown. All very interesting and removing the hub does what you say but it's just as easy to flick the switch on the back of the computer. What I'd like to know is how to make the "Turn off computer" do it's job without various subterfuges. -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
#4
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PC won't stop
On 23/09/2010 18:28, James Silverton wrote:
Don wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:47:54 -0400: It would take no time to test whether thus removing the USB hub enables normal shutdown. All very interesting and removing the hub does what you say but it's just as easy to flick the switch on the back of the computer. What I'd like to know is how to make the "Turn off computer" do it's job without various subterfuges. Find and fix the broken USB peripheral or related driver then. Try the items one at a time, or enlist the help of support. -- Adrian C |
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PC won't stop
"James Silverton" wrote in message
... I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is shutting down" . . . .. . . All very interesting and removing the hub does what you say but it's just as easy to flick the switch on the back of the computer. What I'd like to know is how to make the "Turn off computer" do it's job without various subterfuges. We do not quite follow: is this a complaint about the OS (that the user dislikes that WinXP requires prior removal of USB external devices) or is it a question how to shut down without doing what the OS requires? (Are OS required procedures "subterfuges"?} -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
#6
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PC won't stop
James Silverton wrote:
Hello All! I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs even if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power switch on the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without any apparent problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out the USB connector from the hub also shuts down the machine. Has anyone any suggestions? What is the part number of the Belkin product ? They make a lot of different four port hubs. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...hInDesc=4-port Paul |
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PC won't stop
Don wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:41:35 -0400:
I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is shutting down" . . . . . . All very interesting and removing the hub does what you say but it's just as easy to flick the switch on the back of the computer. What I'd like to know is how to make the "Turn off computer" do it's job without various subterfuges. We do not quite follow: is this a complaint about the OS (that the user dislikes that WinXP requires prior removal of USB external devices) or is it a question how to shut down without doing what the OS requires? (Are OS required procedures "subterfuges"?} Until I installed the powered hub, pressing the "Turn Off" button would cause a complete shutdown. That's what I would like to achieve without flicking switches or removing hardware. The only device listed is the external USB hard drive that I use for backups and it did not use to be necessary to remove it for a shutdown. -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
#8
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PC won't stop
Paul wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:36:45 -0400:
James Silverton wrote: Hello All! I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs even if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power switch on the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without any apparent problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out the USB connector from the hub also shuts down the machine. Has anyone any suggestions? What is the part number of the Belkin product ? They make a lot of different four port hubs. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...hInDesc=4-port It is FSU234 and I think is a fairly recent model. -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
#9
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PC won't stop
James Silverton wrote:
Paul wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:36:45 -0400: James Silverton wrote: Hello All! I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs even if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power switch on the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without any apparent problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out the USB connector from the hub also shuts down the machine. Has anyone any suggestions? What is the part number of the Belkin product ? They make a lot of different four port hubs. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...hInDesc=4-port It is FSU234 and I think is a fairly recent model. The model number could be F5U234 ("five" instead of "esse") http://cache-www.belkin.com/support/...34ea_uk_hr.pdf If you're currently using the wall adapter with the hub, try disconnecting the wall adapter and running the hub in "bus powered" mode. In bus powered mode, the 500mA from the computer, powers the hub plus up to four 100mA loads. That won't work with 2.5" hard drives connected to the hub, as those typically try to draw 500mA from the bus/cable as well. They're "high power" loads. So this debugging technique can't work, with 2.5" drives as test devices (very few 2.5" drives come with their own wall adapters). But a 3.5" drive, has its own power source inside, and only a couple milliamps are drawn from the hub in that case. A 3.5" drive is no load at all. Disconnecting the hub adapter, for a test, is viable if you have only 3.5" hard drives connected. Give that a try. One problem self-powered hubs can have, is "shoving power up the cable". The hub really should have some protection for that, but it is hard to arrange (the usage of diodes, won't fit well within the voltage drop budget of the USB spec). By disconnecting the power supply from your hub, I'd attempting to see if the problem is related to reverse power flow. I have one reference schematic for a hub here, and they use a relay to disconnect the 5V lead on the upstream USB cable (to the computer). The relay is activated, by the presence of the wall adapter 5V feed on the hub. So when that hub design is wall powered, the relay inside the hub "clicks" and opens the 5V wire path from the computer, so the power can't flow backwards. If the wall adapter is de-energized, then the relay allows 5V from the upsteam cable to flow again. But relays cost money, and while that is a technically excellent solution (no voltage drop etc, meets USB spec), it costs too much to put in actual hubs. I cannot relate the two issues. Reverse power flow, shouldn't prevent the shutdown of the computer. But it's one thing to check. The second possibility, would be related to power management software. But I can't imagine a USB device using standard Microsoft drivers, refusing to shut down. So that doesn't make much sense either. I'd have to bet on a reverse power flow issue of some sort, instead. The program UVCView, might be used to review config info coming from the hub, but I don't know what would constitute "bad" info, if I had to look. The program "dumppo", can be used to look for claims of power management driver incompatibility in regular computer devices, but I'm not aware of USB stuff appearing there. And I also haven't seen any examples posted in recent years, of anything actually getting listed by dumppo. Any manufacturer worth their salt, isn't going to be admitting they can't get their hardware to work on an ACPI computer. That would have stopped ten years ago. Paul |
#10
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PC won't stop
On 23/09/2010 9:33 PM, James Silverton wrote:
Until I installed the powered hub, pressing the "Turn Off" button would cause a complete shutdown. That's what I would like to achieve without flicking switches or removing hardware. The only device listed is the external USB hard drive that I use for backups and it did not use to be necessary to remove it for a shutdown. Keep the hub unpowered (i.e. just powered by the computer itself). See if that helps. Yousuf Khan |
#11
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PC won't stop
Paul wrote on Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:52:39 -0400:
James Silverton wrote: Paul wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:36:45 -0400: James Silverton wrote: Hello All! I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs even if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power switch on the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without any apparent problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out the USB connector from the hub also shuts down the machine. Has anyone any suggestions? What is the part number of the Belkin product ? They make a lot of different four port hubs. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...hInDesc=4-port It is FSU234 and I think is a fairly recent model. The model number could be F5U234 ("five" instead of "esse") http://cache-www.belkin.com/support/...34ea_uk_hr.pdf If you're currently using the wall adapter with the hub, try disconnecting the wall adapter and running the hub in "bus powered" mode. In bus powered mode, the 500mA from the computer, powers the hub plus up to four 100mA loads. That won't work with 2.5" hard drives connected to the hub, as those typically try to draw 500mA from the bus/cable as well. They're "high power" loads. So this debugging technique can't work, with 2.5" drives as test devices (very few 2.5" drives come with their own wall adapters). But a 3.5" drive, has its own power source inside, and only a couple milliamps are drawn from the hub in that case. A 3.5" drive is no load at all. Disconnecting the hub adapter, for a test, is viable if you have only 3.5" hard drives connected. Give that a try. One problem self-powered hubs can have, is "shoving power up the cable". The hub really should have some protection for that, but it is hard to arrange (the usage of diodes, won't fit well within the voltage drop budget of the USB spec). By disconnecting the power supply from your hub, I'd attempting to see if the problem is related to reverse power flow. I have one reference schematic for a hub here, and they use a relay to disconnect the 5V lead on the upstream USB cable (to the computer). The relay is activated, by the presence of the wall adapter 5V feed on the hub. So when that hub design is wall powered, the relay inside the hub "clicks" and opens the 5V wire path from the computer, so the power can't flow backwards. If the wall adapter is de-energized, then the relay allows 5V from the upsteam cable to flow again. But relays cost money, and while that is a technically excellent solution (no voltage drop etc, meets USB spec), it costs too much to put in actual hubs. I cannot relate the two issues. Reverse power flow, shouldn't prevent the shutdown of the computer. But it's one thing to check. The second possibility, would be related to power management software. But I can't imagine a USB device using standard Microsoft drivers, refusing to shut down. So that doesn't make much sense either. I'd have to bet on a reverse power flow issue of some sort, instead. The program UVCView, might be used to review config info coming from the hub, but I don't know what would constitute "bad" info, if I had to look. The program "dumppo", can be used to look for claims of power management driver incompatibility in regular computer devices, but I'm not aware of USB stuff appearing there. And I also haven't seen any examples posted in recent years, of anything actually getting listed by dumppo. Any manufacturer worth their salt, isn't going to be admitting they can't get their hardware to work on an ACPI computer. That would have stopped ten years ago. I appreciate the excellent suggestions for tracing and eliminating the problem but it seems I must have a powered hub because the current drain of several powered devices is too much for the USB card in my machine. For example, the Logitech "Unifying Plug" on my wireless keyboard and mouse occasionally behaves erratically when plugged into the USB card. I don't see how to supply power to the hub without the 5 volt wall-plugged adapter. Microsoft Article ID: 315664 suggests turning off the "selective suspend functionality' but I did that without any effect. -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
#12
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PC won't stop
James wrote to Paul on Sat, 25 Sep 2010 08:58:46 -0400:
I appreciate the excellent suggestions for tracing and eliminating the problem but it seems I must have a powered hub because the current drain of several powered devices is too much for the USB card in my machine. For example, the Logitech "Unifying Plug" on my wireless keyboard and mouse occasionally behaves erratically when plugged into the USB card. I don't see how to supply power to the hub without the 5 volt wall-plugged adapter. Microsoft Article ID: 315664 suggests turning off the "selective suspend functionality' but I did that without any effect. Let me just add, in case anyone asks, that removing the 5 v wall supply does not stop the hub from working but shut down is still prevented. -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
#13
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PC won't stop
James Silverton wrote:
James wrote to Paul on Sat, 25 Sep 2010 08:58:46 -0400: I appreciate the excellent suggestions for tracing and eliminating the problem but it seems I must have a powered hub because the current drain of several powered devices is too much for the USB card in my machine. For example, the Logitech "Unifying Plug" on my wireless keyboard and mouse occasionally behaves erratically when plugged into the USB card. I don't see how to supply power to the hub without the 5 volt wall-plugged adapter. Microsoft Article ID: 315664 suggests turning off the "selective suspend functionality' but I did that without any effect. Let me just add, in case anyone asks, that removing the 5 v wall supply does not stop the hub from working but shut down is still prevented. Your hub is supposed to work either "self-powered" or "bus-powered". The difference between the two operating modes, is how much downstream power will be available. If you unplug the F5U234 power adapter, the hub draws all power from the USB cable (the bus). The USB spec says the cable can supply up to 500mA, and that would be coming from the computer. The hub can distribute that power, to low power loads, such as four ports of 100mA loading each. When the power adapter is plugged in, each port is allowed to support a high power device, or 500mA per port. Your adapter is supposed to be powerful enough, to run all four ports at 500mA. By disconnecting the adapter, I was hoping to prevent power from going up the cable. On the chance, that was the reason the computer would not shut off. ******* In your Belkin user manual, it says this about operating the hub without the power adapter providing power. I have no idea what this means, or if it indicates there is something different about two of the ports on the device. "Important Note: The Hub may be used without the power supply when connecting devices that draw 100mA of current or less, however, only port 1 and port 2 will be functional." Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you about debugging this problem. It shouldn't be happening - it's probably a hardware issue of some sort. I'd probably start next, by making a list of all the USB devices I've got, all the USB ports available (I/O plate area, separate USB2 PCI card faceplate and so on), and see if some combination of ports and devices, works better. For the wireless keyboard/mouse, I'd probably plug that into the motherboard, on the chance that it might work when I need to get into the BIOS setup screens. Paul |
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