New computer but win 7 or 8

On 4/17/2013 12:27 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:53:04 +0200, Laszlo Lebrun
wrote:

On 17.04.2013 18:38, Mellowed wrote:
On 4/16/2013 9:48 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:16:40 -0700, Mellowed wrote:

On 4/14/2013 8:01 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:25:05 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

Did you manage to kill the 'hot zone' in the upper left corner and
the other
W8 zone along the right edge of the screen that pops out the
multiple icons?
Also, were you able to kill the capability to switch UI's when
pressing the
Windows key by itself?

Until I can completely hide the new UI, I'm still recommending Win7
to the
people who ask me, so it would be nice to address these last few items.

I seem to recall when using Start8 that in the setup options there is
the option to kill the hot zones. I can't verify that since I no longer
use Win8 and have reverted back to Win7.

I don't have Start8 and have no plans to get it, so I can't immediately
confirm that.

Well your premise was 'Until I can completely hide the new UI'. Well it
looks like your can for $5.
You can even for free: classic shell


You are both missing Char's point. Yes, both Classic Shell and Start8
lets you use the traditional desktop interface instead of the modern
interface. But neither one lets you hide it *completely*, which is
what Char wants: letting you kill the capability to switch UI's when
pressing the Windows key by itself.

In my view, what Char wants is a very minor point, and it's not worth
avoiding Windows 8 for just that reason. But that's his view, and he
has a right to it.

And both Classic Shell and Start8 are very good, but I think Start8
is considerably better, and for the very low price of $5, it's worth
getting and using instead of Classic Shell.

I must be really dense or something but I don't see what you're talking
about. I use Start8 and have it configured so that I don't see the
Modern interface at all when I press the Windows key by itself. I've
even disabled all of the hotspots around the edges and the only way
you'd know that this was a Win8 PC is by the very first item in the
Start menu, which as afar as I can tell right now, it's the only way I
ever see the modern interface.


--

Roy Smith
Windows 8 64-Bit
Thunderbird 17.0.5
Friday, April 19, 2013 12:38:49 PM

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:38:57 -0500, Roy Smith
wrote:

On 4/17/2013 12:27 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:53:04 +0200, Laszlo Lebrun
wrote:

On 17.04.2013 18:38, Mellowed wrote:
On 4/16/2013 9:48 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:16:40 -0700, Mellowed wrote:

On 4/14/2013 8:01 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:25:05 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

Did you manage to kill the 'hot zone' in the upper left corner and
the other
W8 zone along the right edge of the screen that pops out the
multiple icons?
Also, were you able to kill the capability to switch UI's when
pressing the
Windows key by itself?

Until I can completely hide the new UI, I'm still recommending Win7
to the
people who ask me, so it would be nice to address these last few items.

I seem to recall when using Start8 that in the setup options there is
the option to kill the hot zones. I can't verify that since I no longer
use Win8 and have reverted back to Win7.

I don't have Start8 and have no plans to get it, so I can't immediately
confirm that.

Well your premise was 'Until I can completely hide the new UI'. Well it
looks like your can for $5.
You can even for free: classic shell


You are both missing Char's point. Yes, both Classic Shell and Start8
lets you use the traditional desktop interface instead of the modern
interface. But neither one lets you hide it *completely*, which is
what Char wants: letting you kill the capability to switch UI's when
pressing the Windows key by itself.

In my view, what Char wants is a very minor point, and it's not worth
avoiding Windows 8 for just that reason. But that's his view, and he
has a right to it.

And both Classic Shell and Start8 are very good, but I think Start8
is considerably better, and for the very low price of $5, it's worth
getting and using instead of Classic Shell.

I must be really dense or something but I don't see what you're talking
about. I use Start8 and have it configured so that I don't see the
Modern interface at all when I press the Windows key by itself.


OK, if you can do that, then I must be wrong when I said Start8
couldn't do that. But I just looked at the configuration menu again,
and couldn't find out how to do it.

Personally, I don't want it to work that way, but as a matter of
interest, I'd like to know how. So please tell us.

On 4/19/2013 12:38 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
On 4/17/2013 12:27 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:53:04 +0200, Laszlo Lebrun
wrote:

On 17.04.2013 18:38, Mellowed wrote:
On 4/16/2013 9:48 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:16:40 -0700, Mellowed wrote:

On 4/14/2013 8:01 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:25:05 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at
and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

Did you manage to kill the 'hot zone' in the upper left corner and
the other
W8 zone along the right edge of the screen that pops out the
multiple icons?
Also, were you able to kill the capability to switch UI's when
pressing the
Windows key by itself?

Until I can completely hide the new UI, I'm still recommending Win7
to the
people who ask me, so it would be nice to address these last few
items.

I seem to recall when using Start8 that in the setup options there is
the option to kill the hot zones. I can't verify that since I no
longer
use Win8 and have reverted back to Win7.

I don't have Start8 and have no plans to get it, so I can't
immediately
confirm that.

Well your premise was 'Until I can completely hide the new UI'.
Well it
looks like your can for $5.
You can even for free: classic shell


You are both missing Char's point. Yes, both Classic Shell and Start8
lets you use the traditional desktop interface instead of the modern
interface. But neither one lets you hide it *completely*, which is
what Char wants: letting you kill the capability to switch UI's when
pressing the Windows key by itself.

In my view, what Char wants is a very minor point, and it's not worth
avoiding Windows 8 for just that reason. But that's his view, and he
has a right to it.

And both Classic Shell and Start8 are very good, but I think Start8
is considerably better, and for the very low price of $5, it's worth
getting and using instead of Classic Shell.

I must be really dense or something but I don't see what you're talking
about. I use Start8 and have it configured so that I don't see the
Modern interface at all when I press the Windows key by itself. I've
even disabled all of the hotspots around the edges and the only way
you'd know that this was a Win8 PC is by the very first item in the
Start menu, which as afar as I can tell right now, it's the only way I
ever see the modern interface.

Forgot to include a screenshot because I realized that I didn't have the
software installed, so here is a screen shot of my start menu:

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/1443/20130419-tvbc-51kb


--

Roy Smith
Windows 8 64-Bit
Thunderbird 17.0.5
Friday, April 19, 2013 1:09:28 PM

On 4/19/2013 1:04 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:38:57 -0500, Roy Smith
wrote:

On 4/17/2013 12:27 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:53:04 +0200, Laszlo Lebrun
wrote:

On 17.04.2013 18:38, Mellowed wrote:
On 4/16/2013 9:48 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:16:40 -0700, Mellowed wrote:

On 4/14/2013 8:01 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:25:05 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

Did you manage to kill the 'hot zone' in the upper left corner and
the other
W8 zone along the right edge of the screen that pops out the
multiple icons?
Also, were you able to kill the capability to switch UI's when
pressing the
Windows key by itself?

Until I can completely hide the new UI, I'm still recommending Win7
to the
people who ask me, so it would be nice to address these last few items.

I seem to recall when using Start8 that in the setup options there is
the option to kill the hot zones. I can't verify that since I no longer
use Win8 and have reverted back to Win7.

I don't have Start8 and have no plans to get it, so I can't immediately
confirm that.

Well your premise was 'Until I can completely hide the new UI'. Well it
looks like your can for $5.
You can even for free: classic shell


You are both missing Char's point. Yes, both Classic Shell and Start8
lets you use the traditional desktop interface instead of the modern
interface. But neither one lets you hide it *completely*, which is
what Char wants: letting you kill the capability to switch UI's when
pressing the Windows key by itself.

In my view, what Char wants is a very minor point, and it's not worth
avoiding Windows 8 for just that reason. But that's his view, and he
has a right to it.

And both Classic Shell and Start8 are very good, but I think Start8
is considerably better, and for the very low price of $5, it's worth
getting and using instead of Classic Shell.

I must be really dense or something but I don't see what you're talking
about. I use Start8 and have it configured so that I don't see the
Modern interface at all when I press the Windows key by itself.


OK, if you can do that, then I must be wrong when I said Start8
couldn't do that. But I just looked at the configuration menu again,
and couldn't find out how to do it.

Personally, I don't want it to work that way, but as a matter of
interest, I'd like to know how. So please tell us.


Which version of Start8 are you using? I'm using V 1.15. Anyway here
are a set of screenshots of my configuration:

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/1443/20130419-yyfc-67kb

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/1443/20130419-hssr-68kb

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/1443/20130419-zcen-85kb

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/1443/20130419-eyy3-70kb

Those are the four main settings windows showing how I have it configured.


--

Roy Smith
Windows 8 64-Bit
Thunderbird 17.0.5
Friday, April 19, 2013 1:29:52 PM

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:29:54 -0500, Roy Smith
wrote:

On 4/19/2013 1:04 PM, Ken Blake wrote:

I must be really dense or something but I don't see what you're talking
about. I use Start8 and have it configured so that I don't see the
Modern interface at all when I press the Windows key by itself.


OK, if you can do that, then I must be wrong when I said Start8
couldn't do that. But I just looked at the configuration menu again,
and couldn't find out how to do it.

Personally, I don't want it to work that way, but as a matter of
interest, I'd like to know how. So please tell us.


Which version of Start8 are you using? I'm using V 1.15.


V1.11

Anyway here
are a set of screenshots of my configuration:


There it is! The second item on the "Control" screen. I missed it.
Sorry.

And to Char: what I said is wrong and Roy Smith is right. Yes, you
*can* disable the Windows key's going to the Modern interface.
http://my.jetscreenshot.com/1443/20130419-yyfc-67kb

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/1443/20130419-hssr-68kb

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/1443/20130419-zcen-85kb


There it is! The second item on the "Control" screen. I missed it.
Sorry.

And to Char: what I said is wrong and Roy Smith is right. Yes, you
*can* disable the Windows key's going to the Modern interface.

"Char Jackson" wrote in message ...

As far as I can tell, neither of those programs can do everything that I
want, so I may go to Win7 until the next version of Win8 is released. I'm
speaking, of course, of the rumored 8B version that brings back the Start
button and makes the desktop UI the default. The devil is in the details,
however, so I'll wait for reviews before coming back to 8 from 7.
http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-windows-8-plan-blue-bring-back-the-start-button-boot-to-desktop-7000014075/


I think your position is not an uncommon to what others have noted/mentioned to me (the ability to completely turn off the Modern
UI) but not as significant as those who just wish to boot to the desktop after sign-on (Msft account or Local account).

Imo, what's more likely to happen going forward.
1. Possibility to boot straight to the desktop
2. Possibility to reenact the Start Button (but only for the existing Winkey X/lower left flyout menu)
3. No possibility to completely disable the Start Menu (too much skin is already in that game for MSFT, app developers, and OEM
specific updates)

i.e. no return of the Start Menu button with the current Win7 (and earlier o/s) program menu shortcuts, pinned programs or recent
program etc.

What I also think is possible (but not necessarily my preference) since Win8 now deploys both product and security updates for apps
through the MSFT Store is
standardization of notification and deploying all Microsoft related updates (WU/MU) for their products via the Store...thus the
ability to
completely divorce oneself from the Modern UI may not be a future option. Likewise with that may also be (since its not entirely
inconceivable) the need to use a validate-able MSFT account to obtain said product and security updates.

-- --
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:10:29 -0400, "...winston"
wrote:

"Char Jackson" wrote in message ...

As far as I can tell, neither of those programs can do everything that I
want, so I may go to Win7 until the next version of Win8 is released. I'm
speaking, of course, of the rumored 8B version that brings back the Start
button and makes the desktop UI the default. The devil is in the details,
however, so I'll wait for reviews before coming back to 8 from 7.
http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-windows-8-plan-blue-bring-back-the-start-button-boot-to-desktop-7000014075/


I think your position is not an uncommon to what others have noted/mentioned to me (the ability to completely turn off the Modern
UI) but not as significant as those who just wish to boot to the desktop after sign-on (Msft account or Local account).

Imo, what's more likely to happen going forward.
1. Possibility to boot straight to the desktop
2. Possibility to reenact the Start Button (but only for the existing Winkey X/lower left flyout menu)
3. No possibility to completely disable the Start Menu (too much skin is already in that game for MSFT, app developers, and OEM
specific updates)

i.e. no return of the Start Menu button with the current Win7 (and earlier o/s) program menu shortcuts, pinned programs or recent
program etc.

What I also think is possible (but not necessarily my preference) since Win8 now deploys both product and security updates for apps
through the MSFT Store is
standardization of notification and deploying all Microsoft related updates (WU/MU) for their products via the Store...thus the
ability to
completely divorce oneself from the Modern UI may not be a future option. Likewise with that may also be (since its not entirely
inconceivable) the need to use a validate-able MSFT account to obtain said product and security updates.

Thanks, winston. I'm not interested in Win8's Modern UI and I'm *really* not
interested in using a Microsoft account to do anything, so I'll probably
just wipe this laptop and put 7 on it. For me, 8 is not better in any
significant way.

--

Char Jackson

"Char Jackson" wrote in message


Thanks, winston. I'm not interested in Win8's Modern UI and I'm *really* not
interested in using a Microsoft account to do anything, so I'll probably
just wipe this laptop and put 7 on it. For me, 8 is not better in any
significant way.


Windows 7 is a good choice. Even MSFT is comfortable with continued use of Win7.

It's different for those using XP which have to make a choice in the foreseeable future (especially those who rely on retail based
OEMs for pcs since Win7 pre-installed will diminish).

-- --
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

In ,
....winston typed:
"Char Jackson" wrote in message


Thanks, winston. I'm not interested in Win8's Modern UI
and I'm *really* not interested in using a Microsoft account to do
anything,
so I'll probably just wipe this laptop and put 7 on it. For me, 8 is not
better in any significant way.


Windows 7 is a good choice. Even MSFT is comfortable with
continued use of Win7.
It's different for those using XP which have to make a
choice in the foreseeable future (especially those who
rely on retail based OEMs for pcs since Win7 pre-installed will
diminish).

-- --
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

XP will be around in use for many years to come yet. Just because support
stops doesn't mean the software does. And you can download each and every
update you wish to from the MS site, to run at your own leisure anytime you
need them.

No big deal at all.

Fyi - I didn't state that XP won't run or be around

What I did infer....once XP's Lifecycle ends updates (all product and security updates will cease).
- nothing to download.
- no future patches for o/s product updates and security vulnerability

Likewise - software manufacturers will discontinue backward support (including AV manufacturers, printer manufacturers, etc.).

In the long run, XP may continue to run, but doing so will be at a higher risk.

If one has XP and the system is capable of Win7, upgrading makes sense.
If one's XP pc fails - the cost to fix or repair will be a concern vs. a new pc.

Likewise, imo, for many, downloading and manually installing updates as you've suggested from the MSFT site isn't likely to happen
unless you're planning on doing it for them.


--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps
"Twayne" wrote in message ...

In ,
....winston typed:
"Char Jackson" wrote in message


Thanks, winston. I'm not interested in Win8's Modern UI
and I'm *really* not interested in using a Microsoft account to do anything,
so I'll probably just wipe this laptop and put 7 on it. For me, 8 is not
better in any significant way.


Windows 7 is a good choice. Even MSFT is comfortable with
continued use of Win7.
It's different for those using XP which have to make a
choice in the foreseeable future (especially those who
rely on retail based OEMs for pcs since Win7 pre-installed will diminish).

-- --
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

XP will be around in use for many years to come yet. Just because support
stops doesn't mean the software does. And you can download each and every
update you wish to from the MS site, to run at your own leisure anytime you
need them.

No big deal at all.

On 11/04/2013 7:02 PM, mick wrote:
I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am stuck
on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and can help
him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go for win8 I
know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here at home to
play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is widely
advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see what I
mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?


Set him up with a nice computer running Windows 7 Professional or Home.

Why?

1. You know it. He's familiar with it.

2. He looks to you for support, you run Windows 7.

3. It's a competent OS and compatible with most everything out there.

4. Windows 7 is officially supported all the way to 2020 (at least).

5. Generally speaking, people like Windows 7.

6. The Windows 8 team doesn't know which way is up. They are already
overhauling the butt ugly monetized user interface of the thing for some
time later this summer. It seems, though, they will only be digging the
pit deeper (they are putting the Start button back, but not the menu to
go with it!). People hate it, and for good reason. Avoid.

7. Windows 7 is nicer.


'Hope this helps,

Lemon

On 16/04/2013 9:00 AM, stones wrote:
On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 09:35:46 -0400, Wolf K wrote:

I did occasionally use one of the "apps" early on. They hog the whole
screen, and display no obvious way to exit to either Metro or the
standard GUI. There's some key-combo or something to get back to where
you need to be. Needless to say, I no longer use any of the "apps", even
though W8 persists in telling there is a "new app that can open this
type of file".

What we need is a list of registry hacks that will turn off the things
we may now want.

The best registry hack for that, IMO, is a Windows 7 install disc.




Yup.

Lemon

In message , Lemon
writes:
On 11/04/2013 7:02 PM, mick wrote:
I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Why does he want a new computer?
[]
Set him up with a nice computer running Windows 7 Professional or Home.

Why?

1. You know it. He's familiar with it.

Well, he knows XP, and 7 is less of a change from XP than 8.

2. He looks to you for support, you run Windows 7.

3. It's a competent OS and compatible with most everything out there.

I was in a similar position a few years ago in advising a (similarly not
very computer-literate) friend about a new PC. Though I know little of
7, I plumped for it, on the basis that it was probably better for her to
have the latest, for future-proofing reasons (that's mainly why I take
this 'group, in case I need to support anything - though in practice I
don't think it would matter _what_ OS she has, as she only uses about
three applications - Thunderbird, Firefox, Skype, and possibly
IrfanView. So in a similar situation now I _might_ go for 8, though I
don't like what I've seen of it (but then, I wasn't too keen on what I'd
seen of Vista and 7 then).
[]
But I'd say the answer to my first question - why does he think he needs
a new computer at all - needs answering before anything else: in other
words, what does he expect a new computer would do for him that his
present one doesn't (or couldn't if it was bought some more memory).
Unless it's unreliable.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Software is a gas. It will expand to fill whatever container it is placed
in." -- R. Martell, 1999

On 01/05/2013 6:12 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

But I'd say the answer to my first question - why does he think he needs
a new computer at all - needs answering before anything else: in other
words, what does he expect a new computer would do for him that his
present one doesn't (or couldn't if it was bought some more memory).
Unless it's unreliable.



J. P. Gilliver:

Maybe the Pentium II with 32MB RAM has started to seem sluggish, what
with YouTube and flash websites? Sure when it came out is was an
advanced computer aimed at people who do professional video editing and
CAD/CAM design, but over the years do they get rusty somehow (?) perhaps
slowing them down making them unsuitable for CAD/CAM and advanced
applications?

Hm .. maybe that's why you should keep a computer out of the rain?

'Have a nice day,
Lemon

In message , Lemon
writes:
On 01/05/2013 6:12 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

But I'd say the answer to my first question - why does he think he needs
a new computer at all - needs answering before anything else: in other
words, what does he expect a new computer would do for him that his
present one doesn't (or couldn't if it was bought some more memory).
Unless it's unreliable.



J. P. Gilliver:

Maybe the Pentium II with 32MB RAM has started to seem sluggish, what
with YouTube and flash websites? Sure when it came out is was an
advanced computer aimed at people who do professional video editing and

You've snipped what I'd deliberately left in of mick's original post:

"He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do much other
than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph editing."

(If it was running XP, it'd have had more than 32M.)

CAD/CAM design, but over the years do they get rusty somehow (?)
perhaps slowing them down making them unsuitable for CAD/CAM and
advanced applications?

Hm .. maybe that's why you should keep a computer out of the rain?

You've lost me there.

'Have a nice day,
Lemon


I guess I was just asking whether it is actually necessary to get the
person in question a new computer, rather than just tidy up his old one,
and possibly buy it some more RAM. Sure, getting him a 7 (or 8) will
future-proof him for a few more years, but at the expense of his having
to learn a new way of working - and any such future-proofing is only
temporary!

My question was/is really: is it better to put off the evil day
(possibly by buying some more RAM) for a few more years, at the expense
of the change required being greater when it eventually happens, or is
it better to force the change on him now, with the knowledge that
further such change(s) will be required in a few years (but two small
changes rather than one big one)? Without knowing more about the
individual, the actual machine, and his requirements, I can't say.

The description of his requirements so far given suggests to me that a
new computer is _not_ justified at this point; however, the fact that he
"is asking me to help him choose a new desktop computer" suggests it
might be; however however, "He is also not that computer literate, I
have to walk him through most basic things much of the time" means he
might not realise that the more-RAM solution might help without him
having to learn new ways.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

We really don't have any enemies. It's just that some of our best friends are
trying to kill us.