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#181
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On 2/23/2013 6:34 PM, Chris S. wrote:
"BillW50" wrote in message ... On 2/22/2013 8:05 PM, Paul wrote: BillW50 wrote: When I volunteered to be tested against civilian EE grads, I was shocked that most of them had problems even biasing a simple transistor correctly. No wonder most companies will hire one with a military EE degree over a civilian one. Actually, they hire people with practical experience. That's how you "get someone who has biased a transistor". You can hire a civilian EE, if that person has done the job before. I had three summer jobs designing things, and at the time, had just finished designing my own computer from scratch (ran at a blistering 3MHz, on a foot square breadboard). I managed to run 256 instructions of hand assembled code in it (by reading the instruction set manual, and working out the opcodes and operands by hand). (This is the breadboard I used. Mine has one black and three red terminals. I still use this. Right now, it has my LED sorting circuit on it. This is supposed to be "RF quality", but in truth, it was horrible. Just as bad as any conventional breadboard similar to it. Other digital circuits on here, had noise problems. ACE 236 breadboard.) http://www.bmius.com/images/Product/large/35009.jpg This is the processor I used. The processor is so large, you can write the signal names on the white ceramic lid. Used four phase non-overlapping clocks, to coordinate the internal logic. It took something like a thousand plugged in pieces of wire, to wire up the circuit and the support chips. (Like the tiny capacity RAM chips.) http://www.cpushack.com/chippics/TI/...ITMS9900JL.jpg The ugly part of that project, was the clock generator. Needed to be buffered with a handful of transistors, switching 12V amplitude signals. My first clock generator, the chip burned out - it overheated. We didn't use fans back then - I don't think brushless DC fans existed at the time. Everything was supposed to run cool enough, you only needed passive cooling. This was the basic chip, and by adding transistor buffers to the thing, it isolated the capacitive load of the processor, from this chip. So it wouldn't burn out. The upper four MOS signals needed to be buffered. http://www.ti99.com/tms9904d.gif ******* In my graduating class, there were only two of us with practical experience. We both ended up working for the same company. As digital designers. Both of our first designs were a disaster. He had the misfortune to design with 74S, and our company didn't yet possess the right (multilayer) PCB technology for it. So his circuit had never-ending noise problems. Mine suffered a different fate. I designed my circuit with single edge clocking (nothing really out of the ordinary), I guess because the circuit wasn't a technical challenge. The wakeup call I got, was when the factory informed me, that they bought ICs from as many as fifteen different manufacturers, and as soon as they started mixing and matching at random, my design blew up (the timing was never meant to handle a 3:1 mix of timings). I ended up doing a redesign, using opposite edge clocking, to make the design bulletproof. You could use any brand of chips you wanted after that, and the design technique works well enough, you hardly have to check the timing (hahaha). I learned a *lot* about our company component database that year. We didn't seem to have very good "design reviews" back then. We had design reviews, but they weren't as timely as they could be. And that's how generous companies, provide practical experience to young engineers. We didn't even get fired :-) You see, my practical experience up to that point, didn't involves factories or production issues. I just made one-off circuits, and only the prototype had to work. You learn fast, when your butt is being kicked :-) Paul Oh yes, I am well familiar how life was with some civilian EE. I was keeping track of everything while I was still in the military. When Gary Kildall created CP/M, I thought that was just child's play compared to what I was doing and I know I could do it far better. Then the Altair came out. I thought that too was no match compared to what I was doing and that also was merely just a toy compared to the things I was building. Then Paul Allen and Bill Gates came out with Basic for the Altair, that too was far too simple compared to the things I was doing. For example, programming the VTAS computer for guided missiles was far more complex compared to what Paul Allen and Bill Gates had ever done in their lives. It would have been really nice if I could have shared everything I knew with the rest of the computing community back then. But I couldn't, one I was still in the military. And two, most of what I knew was classified technology and I couldn't share it even if I wanted to. I was not alone, their were others also doing remarkable things that the world would never know about. Getting a military EE degree was far harder than getting a civilian EE degree. As they were only interested in the cream of the crop and all others were reassigned for other jobs that may not even have anything to do even with simple electronics. And 95% of my original class was reassigned. So few ever made it that far. You had to keep up at least an A- average to stay in class. I didn't really apply myself as much as I could, just good enough to stay in class (so I thought). But when I graduated, they told me I had the highest tests scores they had seen in the last 5 years. And they were so impressed, they let me do something I never heard of them doing before. They let me pick any place I wanted to go next. I said how about Hawaii? And they said sure, no problem. So I lived in Hawaii during the Vietnam war. So that wasn't a really bad deal at all. Now I wonder what would have happened if I really applied myself in school? After the military I got a job as an EE at Philips. In the military, it was perfectly fine to do your best. If you did anything less, you would get reassigned to do something else. Although I didn't know in the civilian world, you shouldn't always do your best. Because I ended up flying all over the world helping other engineers solve their problems that they couldn't figure out. Boy that was really just a miserable life. Spending all of your time just working on the hardest problems in the world and living out of a suitcase and rarely ever seeing your friends and family ever again. :-( And how many professional groups will let you join? I have been a member of the IEEE even when it was the IRE. I am sure I would have no problem. Just like companies looking for EE has no problems with an military EE degree. Many won't even bother to ask me to even take a test. I got that a lot actually. And what interest would I have with IEEE anyway? They can't get it right the first time, nor the second, etc. and has to keep revising their standards. I would only be interested in a group that gets things right the first time around. After all, why go anywhere else, right? Your Self aggrandizing is still fascinating to me. Get a BS EE or stop saying that you are a "Electronics Engineer" Like I said before, it doesn't matter what you want or think, all what matters are the companies that are looking for EE think. And they consider military EE as far superior to civilian EE. And after being tested against them, I can clearly see why. So how do you excuse how most can't even bias a standard transistor correctly? Where I come from, there is no chance in hell they would ever graduate. And even if I did get a BS EE, I would fly right through the course and learn little to nothing anyway. And they would learn 90% more than they ever did before from me. So what would be the point again? Chris US Army Signal Corps, Long ago retired Oh that explains why you are into substandard stuff. See I was taught completely differently. You had to do it right the first time or you were a complete failure! There is no such thing as second chances, do overs, etc. and all of that was just sissy talk. After all, everybody knows if you want the job done right the first time, you sent in the US Marines. -- Bill Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - Thunderbird v12 Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM - Windows 7 Pro SP1 (x86) |
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#182
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On 2/23/2013 9:53 PM, BillW50 wrote:
On 2/23/2013 6:34 PM, Chris S. wrote: "BillW50" wrote in message ... On 2/22/2013 8:05 PM, Paul wrote: BillW50 wrote: When I volunteered to be tested against civilian EE grads, I was shocked that most of them had problems even biasing a simple transistor correctly. No wonder most companies will hire one with a military EE degree over a civilian one. Actually, they hire people with practical experience. That's how you "get someone who has biased a transistor". You can hire a civilian EE, if that person has done the job before. I had three summer jobs designing things, and at the time, had just finished designing my own computer from scratch (ran at a blistering 3MHz, on a foot square breadboard). I managed to run 256 instructions of hand assembled code in it (by reading the instruction set manual, and working out the opcodes and operands by hand). (This is the breadboard I used. Mine has one black and three red terminals. I still use this. Right now, it has my LED sorting circuit on it. This is supposed to be "RF quality", but in truth, it was horrible. Just as bad as any conventional breadboard similar to it. Other digital circuits on here, had noise problems. ACE 236 breadboard.) http://www.bmius.com/images/Product/large/35009.jpg This is the processor I used. The processor is so large, you can write the signal names on the white ceramic lid. Used four phase non-overlapping clocks, to coordinate the internal logic. It took something like a thousand plugged in pieces of wire, to wire up the circuit and the support chips. (Like the tiny capacity RAM chips.) http://www.cpushack.com/chippics/TI/...ITMS9900JL.jpg The ugly part of that project, was the clock generator. Needed to be buffered with a handful of transistors, switching 12V amplitude signals. My first clock generator, the chip burned out - it overheated. We didn't use fans back then - I don't think brushless DC fans existed at the time. Everything was supposed to run cool enough, you only needed passive cooling. This was the basic chip, and by adding transistor buffers to the thing, it isolated the capacitive load of the processor, from this chip. So it wouldn't burn out. The upper four MOS signals needed to be buffered. http://www.ti99.com/tms9904d.gif ******* In my graduating class, there were only two of us with practical experience. We both ended up working for the same company. As digital designers. Both of our first designs were a disaster. He had the misfortune to design with 74S, and our company didn't yet possess the right (multilayer) PCB technology for it. So his circuit had never-ending noise problems. Mine suffered a different fate. I designed my circuit with single edge clocking (nothing really out of the ordinary), I guess because the circuit wasn't a technical challenge. The wakeup call I got, was when the factory informed me, that they bought ICs from as many as fifteen different manufacturers, and as soon as they started mixing and matching at random, my design blew up (the timing was never meant to handle a 3:1 mix of timings). I ended up doing a redesign, using opposite edge clocking, to make the design bulletproof. You could use any brand of chips you wanted after that, and the design technique works well enough, you hardly have to check the timing (hahaha). I learned a *lot* about our company component database that year. We didn't seem to have very good "design reviews" back then. We had design reviews, but they weren't as timely as they could be. And that's how generous companies, provide practical experience to young engineers. We didn't even get fired :-) You see, my practical experience up to that point, didn't involves factories or production issues. I just made one-off circuits, and only the prototype had to work. You learn fast, when your butt is being kicked :-) Paul Oh yes, I am well familiar how life was with some civilian EE. I was keeping track of everything while I was still in the military. When Gary Kildall created CP/M, I thought that was just child's play compared to what I was doing and I know I could do it far better. Then the Altair came out. I thought that too was no match compared to what I was doing and that also was merely just a toy compared to the things I was building. Then Paul Allen and Bill Gates came out with Basic for the Altair, that too was far too simple compared to the things I was doing. For example, programming the VTAS computer for guided missiles was far more complex compared to what Paul Allen and Bill Gates had ever done in their lives. It would have been really nice if I could have shared everything I knew with the rest of the computing community back then. But I couldn't, one I was still in the military. And two, most of what I knew was classified technology and I couldn't share it even if I wanted to. I was not alone, their were others also doing remarkable things that the world would never know about. Getting a military EE degree was far harder than getting a civilian EE degree. As they were only interested in the cream of the crop and all others were reassigned for other jobs that may not even have anything to do even with simple electronics. And 95% of my original class was reassigned. So few ever made it that far. You had to keep up at least an A- average to stay in class. I didn't really apply myself as much as I could, just good enough to stay in class (so I thought). But when I graduated, they told me I had the highest tests scores they had seen in the last 5 years. And they were so impressed, they let me do something I never heard of them doing before. They let me pick any place I wanted to go next. I said how about Hawaii? And they said sure, no problem. So I lived in Hawaii during the Vietnam war. So that wasn't a really bad deal at all. Now I wonder what would have happened if I really applied myself in school? After the military I got a job as an EE at Philips. In the military, it was perfectly fine to do your best. If you did anything less, you would get reassigned to do something else. Although I didn't know in the civilian world, you shouldn't always do your best. Because I ended up flying all over the world helping other engineers solve their problems that they couldn't figure out. Boy that was really just a miserable life. Spending all of your time just working on the hardest problems in the world and living out of a suitcase and rarely ever seeing your friends and family ever again. :-( And how many professional groups will let you join? I have been a member of the IEEE even when it was the IRE. I am sure I would have no problem. Just like companies looking for EE has no problems with an military EE degree. Many won't even bother to ask me to even take a test. I got that a lot actually. And what interest would I have with IEEE anyway? They can't get it right the first time, nor the second, etc. and has to keep revising their standards. I would only be interested in a group that gets things right the first time around. After all, why go anywhere else, right? Your Self aggrandizing is still fascinating to me. Get a BS EE or stop saying that you are a "Electronics Engineer" Like I said before, it doesn't matter what you want or think, all what matters are the companies that are looking for EE think. And they consider military EE as far superior to civilian EE. And after being tested against them, I can clearly see why. So how do you excuse how most can't even bias a standard transistor correctly? Where I come from, there is no chance in hell they would ever graduate. And even if I did get a BS EE, I would fly right through the course and learn little to nothing anyway. And they would learn 90% more than they ever did before from me. So what would be the point again? Chris US Army Signal Corps, Long ago retired Oh that explains why you are into substandard stuff. See I was taught completely differently. You had to do it right the first time or you were a complete failure! There is no such thing as second chances, do overs, etc. and all of that was just sissy talk. After all, everybody knows if you want the job done right the first time, you sent in the US Marines. The real "killer" to getting a EE started in earnest in the 70s to my mind. Employers wanted to lower pay scales. Bringing in foreign EEs from India with a waver partially solved the problem. So much so that in the 80's, it was not too unusual to see EEs from India and the far east working as techs in the US. Starting salaries were low enough that many potential EEs elected to go for less demanding and less costly sheepskins. After all, not a few EEs found themselves working under bosses that had business or accounting degrees. In my time (I'm retired) there was a big difference between a true design engineer, and a working engineer. The design engineers often had advanced degrees, and the working engineer anything from a bachelors to a technical school certificate. The "working engineers" might have had a more wide range of duties, such as implementation of a design in hardware or software, and overseeing production and testing. Much of my career also involved military hardware and support. No one else could afford or wanted to spend the money for complex computerized test systems. Even the systems to be tested were unusual, in that they were designed to do things that are blatantly a no no in the civilian world. |
#183
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Irrelevant of the topic:
Don't you guys know how or when to "snip"? mac |
#184
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On 24 Feb 2013, " mac" wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-8: Irrelevant of the topic: Don't you guys know how or when to "snip"? Some do, but not "charlie", apparently. I scrolled down 4 pages before giving up. I'll never know what he had to say, but exerience tells me that it was probably a one-liner that said something on the order of "Me too!" |
#185
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On 2/22/2013 2:33 PM, Paul wrote:
Ken Blake wrote: On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:11:46 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch" wrote: I have seen English majors who were superb programmers and newly minted bachelors of Computer Science who had no idea what hexadecimal meant. Ditto! Using myself as an example, I was an English major (for at least part of my college career; I graduated differently) and, if you will forgive what sounds like boasting, I was a very good programmer (I don't want to say I was a *superb* anything). What's the largest program you wrote from scratch, in terms of lines of source ? The reason I ask, is I learned a valuable lesson about that, when I was a teenager. The local university allowed high school students to use the computer center on weekends. At first, I thought I was God's gift to programming, when my 20 line Fortran program would run first time. Then one day, I decided to write a card game in Fortran. When I hit around 400 lines of source or so, that's when I began to clue into the "I really don't get this stuff" phase. Writing small programs was easy, because they had no structure or organization to worry about. The big program broke me. I learned a valuable lesson, before even taking my first programming course. (We were self-taught at that point.) I've since written larger packages. But I wouldn't say it was easy or I was good at it. And for those of you thinking "I could do that", in my first computer course, one of the students sitting next to me had a conversation with the prof. And it was revealed that the marks for the course, followed a "double camel hump" form. Students either ended up knowing most of the material, or next to none of the material. No student knew half the material. Translated into English, you "either get it or don't get it", when it comes to procedural programming. And no guarantees, when the size of the program scales up. The other test for you, is AI languages. I had an environment set up for one of those (the AI language was written by our own programmers). I wrote a simple "program", but I couldn't figure out what constituted "output" from the program. Pretty funny. My buddy said I had "Fortran brain damage", and he was absolutely right :-) Some make the transition to non-procedural languages with no problem, but I wasn't getting it. So I ended up with some booleans set to either True or False. I couldn't see the thing preparing a bank statement or anything. The language did solve the 8 queens problem fairly rapidly though. Complete with graphics. Paul A huge number of people write computer code. Maybe ten percent are actually good at it! It's not enough to get your code to run on the target processor and produce correct output. People have to be able to read your code and understand it! |
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On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:43:06 -0500, "Richard B. Gilbert"
wrote: A huge number of people write computer code. Maybe ten percent are actually good at it! It's not enough to get your code to run on the target processor and produce correct output. People have to be able to read your code and understand it! I don't whether that ten percent is an accurate number or not; I suspect that it's considerably less than that, although I'm going from my own experience rather than by any statistics I've seen. But other than that small point of the percentage, I almost completely agree with what you say. -- Ken Blake |
#187
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" mac" wrote:
Irrelevant of the topic: Don't you guys know how or when to "snip"? mac +1! |
#188
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On 2/21/2013 10:52 AM, BillW50 wrote:
On 2/21/2013 9:30 AM, John F. Morse wrote: On 02/21/2013 08:51 AM, BillW50 wrote: In , John F. Morse typed: On 02/19/2013 06:15 PM, Justin wrote: BillW50 wrote on [Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:02:42 -0600]: On 2/19/2013 5:34 PM, Justin wrote: BillW50 wrote on [Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:55:13 -0600]: On 2/16/2013 10:21 PM, Justin wrote: BillW50 wrote on [Sat, 16 Feb 2013 16:10:47 -0600]: Anything regarding IM for Linux is really stripped down and isn't worth much. The only thing for IM for Linux is somewhat respectable is Skype, which I never used for Linux, but what I have heard. Everything else for Linux is pretty much plain text and that is it. That's what IM is, plain text. Naw... it is much more than that. Fonts, italics, bold, underline, emoticons, mic, webcam, file transfers, etc. Webcam is not a requirement of IM. Nor is microphone. I've never had a problem with any of these though Lots of problems with Linux. As Linux has the most limited support for Yep, must be some PEBCAK issues That is Bill, the child molester. Must have served out his latest sentence. Oh really? If you are so sure, surely you would be willing to put your money were your mouth is at. So how much would you care to lose? I don't gamble, and you are the loser. No John, where I come from it is called settling out of court. I see you are still doing your bragging, like you did about your daughter's sleep-over friends who you fondled. Really? That is amazing! Since I don't even have a daughter. Bugger-off, Bill. You are well-known, and should have stayed in Soledad a few more years. We don't have to settle this out of court if you don't want to. We can go to court and you can enjoy a nice life behind bars if you like. I don't think anyone other than your selves care to see this! To say that it's of topic is an understatement! Please take it off line! Thank you. |
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