Clean a PC before selling?

jim wrote:
If you wanted to clean ALL traces of your activity from a PC before
selling it or giving it away, what would be the best way to do that
without a format and complete re-install of the OS?

PD wrote:
Fer crissake, m'man... the guy doesn't have to worry that the CIA is
gonna get ahold of his computer and scour it for details!

Folks who ask these kinda questions are giving their computer to an
ordinary person who is clueless - not to add, probably
disinterested - when it comes to things like that.

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
Although you are very probably right, there's no way you can know
that for sure.

Also note that jim wrote "ALL," in capital letters, stressing that
he wasn't interested in a halfway solution.

Again, that's *usually* true, but not necessarily always. Even if
it's true in this case, I think it's import for people to ask to
realize that a particular solution may be good enough for them, but
it's not perfect.

Here's the kind of reply I usually make to such questions, pointing
out both what's good enough for most people, and what's required for
perfection:

"It all depends on how paranoid you want to be. Simply deleting a
file often leaves it possible for someone to recover it, but they
have to actively want to and try to do this. Because that's a rare
occurrence, just deleting it is probably good enough for most
people.

If you want to do more, there are freeware/shareware programs
available that will overwrite the data, one or several times. That
makes it much harder to recover anything.

It's important, however, to recognize that there is *no* way to do
this perfectly. Even overwriting it multiple times isn't necessarily
good enough; there are sophisticated (and expensive) techniques that
can often recover even overwritten data. For that reason, the US
government destroys drives containing sensitive data in a furnace,
rather than relying on overwriting.

But if you're not an international spy, you probably don't have data
that warrants that kind of treatment. I'd either just delete it, or
use one of the overwriting programs I mentioned above. Google will
find you several choices."

PD wrote:
guffaw

You "experts" just can't resist the urge to show off your knowledge.
Many a time (and I've been here since the first release of XP in
2001), you guys give the most complicated answers to what is
obviously a newb, when you should know full well that the newb
won't be able to follow them.

But to go back to the original topic: I deal in probabilities, not
possibilities. When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is
the recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??

ZERO.

Format the damned drive and sleep easily.

What you are actually saying is that we should not answer the questions to
the best of our ability/knowledge - but the best of *your* ability and
knowledge? That there should never be any discussion about 'better ways to
do things' or 'other alternatives' given... ? That any advancement in that
manner is just a waste of time and effort and it is better if such things
just stay stagnant...?

You state that you "... deal in probabilities, not possibilities ..."
You ask, "When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is the recipient
likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??"
Your answer is "ZERO"...

So - based off your answer - anyone *you* would give away your computer(s)
to would be completely unskilled in computing and have no interest in your
old data.

However - how does that reflect to anyone *other than* you?

Perhaps the OPs friends/family/acquaintances that they would 'give away'
(only half of their original scenario/question, mind you) the computer to
are computer tinkerers looking for another system to play around with and
unknown to the OP (or known) they are at this moment playing with data
recovery tools/capabilities just to see what they can do... Or they are just
nosey busy-bodies who would use this as an opportunity - given a few skills
they have - to learn more about the OP. Or - maybe the OP is just paranoid
about making sure nothing gets out even if the computer might fall into the
hands of someone who might use the data for their own gain. You do not know
the OPs position in 'giving away' the computer, who might obtain it in their
'circle of people'. Their very reason for asking is a black hole for you -
and may be that they suspect whom they will be giving it to has such skills
(or they believe them to) that it makes them nervous.

Also - you only referred to 1/2 the question. The circle of people the OP
(or actually - your answer only deals with your probabilities - not the
OPs - but...) would *give* the computer to may be completely different than
the circle of people the OP could sell their computer to. They did specify
"selling it or giving it away". That throws a whole new superset into the
equations of probability. And yes - you have to deal with
sets/supersets/subsets in such a calculation - in this case.

Of course - I gather from your posting - you are not actually working with
probability or possibilities. You are dealing with WAG's and assumptions.
Not only WAG's and assumptions - but those dealing with only *you* and *your
environment* - not the OP's (original poster) who asked the question.


Scenario:

I know if I was some sort of identity thief - I would look for signs of an
inexperience computer user who happened to be selling their computer and I
would buy it up (likely using money obtained from my last identity
theft/credit card scam (get cash out or a refund on something I did not buy
with my money, etc.)) and scour it for private information. If someone
(inexperienced/didn't ask) sold said computer without getting rid of
anything or just deleting a few files/directories instead of a format -
imagine what I could recover with nothing more than a freeware piece of
software! Even if they did a system restore with a built-in process - some
of the freeware (or more expensive tools I could have bought with past scam
money) could recover data even from that.

Think that sounds like too much trouble? You could be right - but then
again - things like that *do* happen. If I was a thief - the fact that I
lessen my chances at being caught doing that versus stopping and taking
someone's mail, going through their garbage, taking credit card
receipts/information from where I work as I check people out, etc - would
increase the lure of doing such things in private and stealth.


Questions for you:

While the probability for *you* may be low if you *give away* a computer -
just how did you make that probability calculation for the OP?
Why did you leave out the 'sale' of said computer in your calculations (it
was given in the original question)?
Why does it bother you that someone might give the OP a more detailed answer
with alternatives and more advanced options than 'format'?

You leave out that the OP came back and posted this:

jim wrote:
Thanks for the info - http://dban.sourceforge.net/ for those that
want it too.

So that we now know they will be wiping the drive to a bit higher-standard
than just a format and that is obviously what *they* wanted.

When giving an answer to someone where interaction is limited - sometimes it
is best to give them many different options and let them choose the one that
suits their needs best, IMHO.


For those interesting in doing whatever they can (whatever your reasons)
when you are about to sell or give away a computer to ensure that your data
that existed on that computer at some time is difficult (at best) to
retrieve (or you just want to read about the methods and discussions this
topic generated in this conversation), I suggest you scan through the entire
conversation he
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...ecb5f091536425

Good Luck!

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

jim wrote:

If you wanted to clean ALL traces of your activity from a PC before selling
it or giving it away, what would be the best way to do that without a format
and complete re-install of the OS?

Zero the HDD.









--
http://www.bootdisk.com/

On Jan 5, 12:26*pm, "Shenan Stanley" wrote:

Perhaps the OPs friends/family/acquaintances that they would 'give away'
(only half of their original scenario/question, mind you) the computer to
are computer tinkerers looking for another system to play around with and
unknown to the OP (or known) they are at this moment playing with data
recovery tools/capabilities just to see what they can do... Or they are just
nosey busy-bodies who would use this as an opportunity - given a few skills
they have - to learn more about the OP. *

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

jim wrote:
If you wanted to clean ALL traces of your activity from a PC before
selling it or giving it away, what would be the best way to do that
without a format and complete re-install of the OS?

PD wrote:
Fer crissake, m'man... the guy doesn't have to worry that the CIA is
gonna get ahold of his computer and scour it for details!

Folks who ask these kinda questions are giving their computer to an
ordinary person who is clueless - not to add, probably
disinterested - when it comes to things like that.

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
Although you are very probably right, there's no way you can know
that for sure.

Also note that jim wrote "ALL," in capital letters, stressing that
he wasn't interested in a halfway solution.

Again, that's *usually* true, but not necessarily always. Even if
it's true in this case, I think it's import for people to ask to
realize that a particular solution may be good enough for them, but
it's not perfect.

Here's the kind of reply I usually make to such questions, pointing
out both what's good enough for most people, and what's required for
perfection:

"It all depends on how paranoid you want to be. Simply deleting a
file often leaves it possible for someone to recover it, but they
have to actively want to and try to do this. Because that's a rare
occurrence, just deleting it is probably good enough for most
people.

If you want to do more, there are freeware/shareware programs
available that will overwrite the data, one or several times. That
makes it much harder to recover anything.

It's important, however, to recognize that there is *no* way to do
this perfectly. Even overwriting it multiple times isn't necessarily
good enough; there are sophisticated (and expensive) techniques that
can often recover even overwritten data. For that reason, the US
government destroys drives containing sensitive data in a furnace,
rather than relying on overwriting.

But if you're not an international spy, you probably don't have data
that warrants that kind of treatment. I'd either just delete it, or
use one of the overwriting programs I mentioned above. Google will
find you several choices."

PD wrote:
guffaw

You "experts" just can't resist the urge to show off your knowledge.
Many a time (and I've been here since the first release of XP in
2001), you guys give the most complicated answers to what is
obviously a newb, when you should know full well that the newb
won't be able to follow them.

But to go back to the original topic: I deal in probabilities, not
possibilities. When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is
the recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??

ZERO.

Format the damned drive and sleep easily.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
What you are actually saying is that we should not answer the
questions to the best of our ability/knowledge - but the best of
*your* ability and knowledge? That there should never be any
discussion about 'better ways to do things' or 'other alternatives'
given... ? That any advancement in that manner is just a waste of
time and effort and it is better if such things just stay
stagnant...?

You state that you "... deal in probabilities, not possibilities
..."
You ask, "When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is the
recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??"
Your answer is "ZERO"...

So - based off your answer - anyone *you* would give away your
computer(s) to would be completely unskilled in computing and have
no interest in your old data.

However - how does that reflect to anyone *other than* you?

Perhaps the OPs friends/family/acquaintances that they would 'give
away' (only half of their original scenario/question, mind you) the
computer to are computer tinkerers looking for another system to
play around with and unknown to the OP (or known) they are at this
moment playing with data recovery tools/capabilities just to see
what they can do... Or they are just nosey busy-bodies who would
use this as an opportunity - given a few skills they have - to
learn more about the OP. Or - maybe the OP is just paranoid about
making sure nothing gets out even if the computer might fall into
the hands of someone who might use the data for their own gain.
You do not know the OPs position in 'giving away' the computer, who
might obtain it in their 'circle of people'. Their very reason for
asking is a black hole for you - and may be that they suspect whom
they will be giving it to has such skills (or they believe them to)
that it makes them nervous.

Also - you only referred to 1/2 the question. The circle of people
the OP (or actually - your answer only deals with your
probabilities - not the
OPs - but...) would *give* the computer to may be completely
different than the circle of people the OP could sell their
computer to. They did specify "selling it or giving it away".
That throws a whole new superset into the equations of probability.
And yes - you have to deal with sets/supersets/subsets in such a
calculation - in this case.

Of course - I gather from your posting - you are not actually
working with probability or possibilities. You are dealing with
WAG's and assumptions. Not only WAG's and assumptions - but those
dealing with only *you* and *your environment* - not the OP's
(original poster) who asked the question.


Scenario:

I know if I was some sort of identity thief - I would look for
signs of an inexperience computer user who happened to be selling
their computer and I would buy it up (likely using money obtained
from my last identity theft/credit card scam (get cash out or a
refund on something I did not buy with my money, etc.)) and scour
it for private information. If someone (inexperienced/didn't ask)
sold said computer without getting rid of anything or just deleting
a few files/directories instead of a format - imagine what I could
recover with nothing more than a freeware piece of software! Even
if they did a system restore with a built-in process - some of the
freeware (or more expensive tools I could have bought with past
scam money) could recover data even from that.

Think that sounds like too much trouble? You could be right - but
then again - things like that *do* happen. If I was a thief - the
fact that I lessen my chances at being caught doing that versus
stopping and taking someone's mail, going through their garbage,
taking credit card receipts/information from where I work as I
check people out, etc - would increase the lure of doing such
things in private and stealth.


Questions for you:

While the probability for *you* may be low if you *give away* a
computer - just how did you make that probability calculation for
the OP?
Why did you leave out the 'sale' of said computer in your
calculations (it was given in the original question)?
Why does it bother you that someone might give the OP a more
detailed answer with alternatives and more advanced options than
'format'?

You leave out that the OP came back and posted this:

jim wrote:
Thanks for the info - http://dban.sourceforge.net/ for those that
want it too.

So that we now know they will be wiping the drive to a bit
higher-standard than just a format and that is obviously what
*they* wanted.

When giving an answer to someone where interaction is limited -
sometimes it is best to give them many different options and let
them choose the one that suits their needs best, IMHO.


For those interesting in doing whatever they can (whatever your
reasons) when you are about to sell or give away a computer to
ensure that your data that existed on that computer at some time is
difficult (at best) to retrieve (or you just want to read about the
methods and discussions this topic generated in this conversation),
I suggest you scan through the entire conversation he
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...ecb5f091536425

Good Luck!

PD wrote:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

However - is it your business to be concerned over whether or not the OP is
crazy/paranoid or wouldn't it just be eaiser to bypass all the nonsense and
give them a way to securely erase the data (ALL data) as they originally
asked...?

Not that the link to your homepage wasn't amusing at least, but it did
nothing to answer the actual mathematical and reference point questions
asked of you...

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

On Jan 6, 3:30*pm, "Shenan Stanley" wrote:
jim wrote:

PD wrote:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

However - is it your business to be concerned over whether or not the OP is
crazy/paranoid or wouldn't it just be eaiser to bypass all the nonsense and
give them a way to securely erase the data (ALL data) as they originally
asked...?

One question: can you bend over and pick up a penny off the floor with
that broomstick up yer ass?

Not that the link to your homepage wasn't amusing at least, but it did
nothing to answer the actual mathematical and reference point questions
asked of you...

Refer to "One question".

snipped some conversation for brevity
Suggested highly that the entire conversation be reviewed for complete
comprehension, and luckily Google does archive it nicely for us:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...ecb5f091536425



jim wrote:
If you wanted to clean ALL traces of your activity from a PC before
selling it or giving it away, what would be the best way to do that
without a format and complete re-install of the OS?

PD wrote:
Fer crissake, m'man... the guy doesn't have to worry that the CIA is
gonna get ahold of his computer and scour it for details!

Folks who ask these kinda questions are giving their computer to an
ordinary person who is clueless - not to add, probably
disinterested - when it comes to things like that.

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
Although you are very probably right, there's no way you can know
that for sure.

Also note that jim wrote "ALL," in capital letters, stressing that
he wasn't interested in a halfway solution.

Again, that's *usually* true, but not necessarily always. Even if
it's true in this case, I think it's import for people to ask to
realize that a particular solution may be good enough for them, but
it's not perfect.

Here's the kind of reply I usually make to such questions, pointing
out both what's good enough for most people, and what's required for
perfection:

"It all depends on how paranoid you want to be. Simply deleting a
file often leaves it possible for someone to recover it, but they
have to actively want to and try to do this. Because that's a rare
occurrence, just deleting it is probably good enough for most
people.

If you want to do more, there are freeware/shareware programs
available that will overwrite the data, one or several times. That
makes it much harder to recover anything.

It's important, however, to recognize that there is *no* way to do
this perfectly. Even overwriting it multiple times isn't necessarily
good enough; there are sophisticated (and expensive) techniques that
can often recover even overwritten data. For that reason, the US
government destroys drives containing sensitive data in a furnace,
rather than relying on overwriting.

But if you're not an international spy, you probably don't have data
that warrants that kind of treatment. I'd either just delete it, or
use one of the overwriting programs I mentioned above. Google will
find you several choices."

PD wrote:
guffaw

You "experts" just can't resist the urge to show off your knowledge.
Many a time (and I've been here since the first release of XP in
2001), you guys give the most complicated answers to what is
obviously a newb, when you should know full well that the newb
won't be able to follow them.

But to go back to the original topic: I deal in probabilities, not
possibilities. When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is
the recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??

ZERO.

Format the damned drive and sleep easily.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
What you are actually saying is that we should not answer the
questions to the best of our ability/knowledge - but the best of
*your* ability and knowledge? That there should never be any
discussion about 'better ways to do things' or 'other alternatives'
given... ? That any advancement in that manner is just a waste of
time and effort and it is better if such things just stay
stagnant...?

You state that you "... deal in probabilities, not possibilities
..."
You ask, "When one is giving away a computer, how "expert" is the
recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10??"
Your answer is "ZERO"...

So - based off your answer - anyone *you* would give away your
computer(s) to would be completely unskilled in computing and have
no interest in your old data.

However - how does that reflect to anyone *other than* you?

Perhaps the OPs friends/family/acquaintances that they would 'give
away' (only half of their original scenario/question, mind you) the
computer to are computer tinkerers looking for another system to
play around with and unknown to the OP (or known) they are at this
moment playing with data recovery tools/capabilities just to see
what they can do... Or they are just nosey busy-bodies who would
use this as an opportunity - given a few skills they have - to
learn more about the OP. Or - maybe the OP is just paranoid about
making sure nothing gets out even if the computer might fall into
the hands of someone who might use the data for their own gain.
You do not know the OPs position in 'giving away' the computer, who
might obtain it in their 'circle of people'. Their very reason for
asking is a black hole for you - and may be that they suspect whom
they will be giving it to has such skills (or they believe them to)
that it makes them nervous.

Also - you only referred to 1/2 the question. The circle of people
the OP (or actually - your answer only deals with your
probabilities - not the
OPs - but...) would *give* the computer to may be completely
different than the circle of people the OP could sell their
computer to. They did specify "selling it or giving it away".
That throws a whole new superset into the equations of probability.
And yes - you have to deal with sets/supersets/subsets in such a
calculation - in this case.

Of course - I gather from your posting - you are not actually
working with probability or possibilities. You are dealing with
WAG's and assumptions. Not only WAG's and assumptions - but those
dealing with only *you* and *your environment* - not the OP's
(original poster) who asked the question.


Scenario:

I know if I was some sort of identity thief - I would look for
signs of an inexperience computer user who happened to be selling
their computer and I would buy it up (likely using money obtained
from my last identity theft/credit card scam (get cash out or a
refund on something I did not buy with my money, etc.)) and scour
it for private information. If someone (inexperienced/didn't ask)
sold said computer without getting rid of anything or just deleting
a few files/directories instead of a format - imagine what I could
recover with nothing more than a freeware piece of software! Even
if they did a system restore with a built-in process - some of the
freeware (or more expensive tools I could have bought with past
scam money) could recover data even from that.

Think that sounds like too much trouble? You could be right - but
then again - things like that *do* happen. If I was a thief - the
fact that I lessen my chances at being caught doing that versus
stopping and taking someone's mail, going through their garbage,
taking credit card receipts/information from where I work as I
check people out, etc - would increase the lure of doing such
things in private and stealth.


Questions for you:

While the probability for *you* may be low if you *give away* a
computer - just how did you make that probability calculation for
the OP?
Why did you leave out the 'sale' of said computer in your
calculations (it was given in the original question)?
Why does it bother you that someone might give the OP a more
detailed answer with alternatives and more advanced options than
'format'?

You leave out that the OP came back and posted this:

jim wrote:
Thanks for the info - http://dban.sourceforge.net/ for those that
want it too.

So that we now know they will be wiping the drive to a bit
higher-standard than just a format and that is obviously what
*they* wanted.

When giving an answer to someone where interaction is limited -
sometimes it is best to give them many different options and let
them choose the one that suits their needs best, IMHO.


For those interesting in doing whatever they can (whatever your
reasons) when you are about to sell or give away a computer to
ensure that your data that existed on that computer at some time is
difficult (at best) to retrieve (or you just want to read about the
methods and discussions this topic generated in this conversation),
I suggest you scan through the entire conversation he
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...ecb5f091536425

Good Luck!

PD wrote:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

Shenan wrote:
However - is it your business to be concerned over whether or not the OP
is
crazy/paranoid or wouldn't it just be eaiser to bypass all the nonsense
and
give them a way to securely erase the data (ALL data) as they originally
asked...?

Not that the link to your homepage wasn't amusing at least, but it did
nothing to answer the actual mathematical and reference point questions
asked of you...

PD wrote:
One question: can you bend over and pick up a penny off the floor
with that broomstick up yer ass?

Refer to "One question".

Personal insults instead of defending what you have stated/answering direct
questions posed to you about your response - very telling...

As for the questions - I am sorry you have missed them somehow. I thought
the line above them (Questions for you pointed them out clearly - but I
can see how one might miss that - so here they are once again...

Questions for you:

- While the probability for *you* may be low if you *give away* a computer -
just how did you make that probability calculation for the OP?
- Why did you leave out the 'sale' of said computer in your calculations (it
was given in the original question)?
-Why does it bother you that someone might give the OP a more detailed
answer
with alternatives and more advanced options than 'format'?

Please note "OP" is "Original Poster" for the purpose of this thread...

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

PD wrote:

On Jan 5, 12:26 pm, "Shenan Stanley" wrote:


Perhaps the OPs friends/family/acquaintances that they would 'give away'
(only half of their original scenario/question, mind you) the computer to
are computer tinkerers looking for another system to play around with and
unknown to the OP (or known) they are at this moment playing with data
recovery tools/capabilities just to see what they can do... Or they are just
nosey busy-bodies who would use this as an opportunity - given a few skills
they have - to learn more about the OP.


http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

You really don't understand the issue. In essence what you are saying
is that you would have no qualms disposing of a file cabinet full of
personal/financial papers by simply putting it at the curb for garbage
pickup or giving it to a thrift shop. The simple formating solution
that you offer is akin to using whiteout liquid paper to cover the
folder names but otherwise leaving everything in the file cabinet, as if
people won't be able to look in the file folders because they have no
name or identification written on the tabs. For your own sake you
better reconsider your advice when comes time to dispose of your own
computer!

John

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

can often recover even overwritten data. For that reason, the US
government destroys drives containing sensitive data in a furnace,
rather than relying on overwriting.

Or even better, put the drive in the toilet in a redneck's trailer for a
week.



--
http://www.bootdisk.com/

On Jan 6, 6:35*pm, John John wrote:

You really don't understand the issue. *In essence what you are saying
is that you would have no qualms disposing of a file cabinet full of
personal/financial papers by simply putting it at the curb for garbage
pickup or giving it to a thrift shop. *The simple formating solution
that you offer is akin to using whiteout liquid paper to cover the
folder names but otherwise leaving everything in the file cabinet, as if
people won't be able to look in the file folders because they have no
name or identification written on the tabs. *For your own sake you
better reconsider your advice when comes time to dispose of your own
computer!

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

PD wrote:
On Jan 6, 6:35 pm, John John wrote:


You really don't understand the issue. In essence what you are saying
is that you would have no qualms disposing of a file cabinet full of
personal/financial papers by simply putting it at the curb for garbage
pickup or giving it to a thrift shop. The simple formating solution
that you offer is akin to using whiteout liquid paper to cover the
folder names but otherwise leaving everything in the file cabinet, as if
people won't be able to look in the file folders because they have no
name or identification written on the tabs. For your own sake you
better reconsider your advice when comes time to dispose of your own
computer!


http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

Excuse me Sir, but you are a fool! You have absolutely no understanding
of data protection and basic security concepts. No one in their right
mind would follow any of the advice that you have given on the issue.
If you cannot understand the simple concepts explained in this thread
then your computer skills leave much to be desired. Any five year old
child would be a better computer technician than you, at least a five
year old child is willing to learn, you on the other hand must have
cement in your cranial cavity!

John

Shenan Stanley wrote:
snipped some conversation for brevity
Suggested highly that the entire conversation be reviewed for complete
comprehension, and luckily Google does archive it nicely for us:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...ecb5f091536425


I read somewhere that as a drive wears the head to track alignment "Can"
slip far enough that later erasure does not always complete the job and
so with a program that can (say) half step the heads recovery of some
data may be possible.

Also with NTFS there's the somewhat mysterious issue of Alternate File
Streams.

Given the number of completely worthless "Security" programs out there
how does one really tell if a drive has been "Securely" wiped.

So I think much of what has been said here is accurate as far as it
goes, but I also think it is impossible to completely rule anything out.

I reckon superglueing broken platters together is probably as close to
impossible as it's going to get so I will stick with the 4 pound hammer

Current drives are self-calibrating, so as maintain head alignment. You
may be remembering the old servo drives and some were so bad that you
had to LL format them in the orientation they would be used, or you
would corrupt everything.

Charlie Tame wrote:

Shenan Stanley wrote:

snipped some conversation for brevity
Suggested highly that the entire conversation be reviewed for complete
comprehension, and luckily Google does archive it nicely for us:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...ecb5f091536425



I read somewhere that as a drive wears the head to track alignment "Can"
slip far enough that later erasure does not always complete the job and
so with a program that can (say) half step the heads recovery of some
data may be possible.

Also with NTFS there's the somewhat mysterious issue of Alternate File
Streams.

Given the number of completely worthless "Security" programs out there
how does one really tell if a drive has been "Securely" wiped.

So I think much of what has been said here is accurate as far as it
goes, but I also think it is impossible to completely rule anything out.

I reckon superglueing broken platters together is probably as close to
impossible as it's going to get so I will stick with the 4 pound hammer

Charlie Tame wrote:

Shenan Stanley wrote:

snipped some conversation for brevity Suggested highly that the
entire conversation be reviewed for complete comprehension, and
luckily Google does archive it nicely for us:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...ecb5f091536425


I read somewhere that as a drive wears the head to track alignment
"Can" slip far enough that later erasure does not always complete the
job and so with a program that can (say) half step the heads
recovery of some data may be possible.

That was the theory on old drives, on new drives that never really was
an issue. On the old class of drives it was thought to be an issue, and
what you say was thought to be possible, but not with any software
methods, it was thought to be possible with the use of sophisticated
laboratory equipment. That is why the practice of multiple wipes (as
many as 35 wipes!) was advocated and widely used, but even on these old
drives no one was ever capable of recovering data on a properly wiped
hard drive. However, with wobbly floppy diskettes some have actually
proven the technique that you describe.


Also with NTFS there's the somewhat mysterious issue of Alternate
File Streams.

That is a non-issue, on a securely wiped drive there is nothing at all
left on it, the alternate data streams are zero written along with the
files.


Given the number of completely worthless "Security" programs out
there how does one really tell if a drive has been "Securely" wiped.

So I think much of what has been said here is accurate as far as it
goes, but I also think it is impossible to completely rule anything
out.

I reckon superglueing broken platters together is probably as close
to impossible as it's going to get so I will stick with the 4 pound
hammer

The irony of the "sledge hammer" method is that by using the very
sophisticated microscopy methods that that the sledge hammer proponents
claim are "supposed" to "possibly" uncover files on securely wiped
drives it is possible to recover data on pieces of hard drives that are
as little as 1/125 of an inch in size! It would be a daunting task of
astronomical proportion and no one would care to do this on a drive just
for a fishing expedition, but if there was really important information
or evidence known to be on the drive it could be recovered if someone
wanted to pay. That particular scenario is a proven one, recovering
data on broken or bent platers has been done, but it isn't something
that would be done unless there was a real big fish to be caught! For
all practical purposes recovering data on a drive with bent or broken
platters is deemed to be nearly impossible, it would cost a king's
ransom but it is not beyond the means of exotic data recovery to recover
data on bent or broken platters, a properly wiped drive on the other
hand is beyond these exotic data recovery techniques.

If you are paranoid to that point then, yes, the only 100% absolutely
sure method is to do like Ken says and melt the drive! The deal is that
as far as securely wiped drives go no one has ever recovered data on
them. The risk is that the actual wipe might fail because of sloppy
users not using the right software or wipe method or because of
mechanical drive failure. In the case of mechanical failure the wiping
software cannot wipe all the sectors on the drive, however using the SE
commands secure erase software will or should alert the users that
mechanical problems prevent 100% secure erasure. Secure erase
overwrites all the sectors on a drive, including those that have been
marked as damaged or unusable and made unavailable to operating systems.
In fact for the extremely paranoid secure erasure is safer than the
sledge hammer! So your only other alternative is to go to a steel plant
or foundry and pitch the drive in the melting pot! Of course you have
to go to the steel plant and pitch it in the pot yourself, if you are
that concerned that data will be recovered on the drive you will not
trust anyone else with the task.

http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com...273281,00.html
http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hughes/C...eProtocols.pdf
http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hughes/D...onTutorial.pdf
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UT...rasure&x=0&y=0

http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hughes/SecureErase.shtml

John

"how "expert" is the recipient likely to be on a scale of 1 to 10"
And how about others directly or indirectly connected to the
recipient.
Another group you have conveniently ignored and yet they may have full
access to any and all data.

"are giving their computer to an ordinary person who is
clueless"Please prove this applies in this specific case.
Instead of stopping there as you have, look beyond.
There is potential risk there as well.

It is clear the OP will not achieve the desired result without
formatting and a little more.
However with your remarks it is clear you have more specific details
on the needs of the OP.
Please share that information.
Otherwise it seems your answers do not look out for other reasonable
possibilities.
Please refrain from posting the irrelevant link you have used before
as an answer.
It will only demonstrate you lack the specific knowledge to give a
reasoned answer.

Your insults scattered among your posts also demonstrate your own
insecurity with your views, otherwise you not have need to insult to
prop up your position.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar



"PD" wrote in message
...
On Jan 3, 10:21 am, Malke wrote:
jim wrote:
If you wanted to clean ALL traces of your activity from a PC
before selling
it or giving it away, what would be the best way to do that
without a format
and complete re-install of the OS?

You can't. Even with a format, data recovery software can retrieve
files. The only way to make sure there is nothing left of your
activity
is to wipe the hard drive (Darik's Boot and Nuke is free; Acronis
Disk
Cleanser is good but not free) or smash it with a sledge hammer.

Fer crissake, m'man... the guy doesn't have to worry that the CIA is
gonna get ahold of his computer and scour it for details!

Folks who ask these kinda questions are giving their computer to an
ordinary person who is clueless - not to add, probably disinterested -
when it comes to things like that.

Plasma furnace.