Boycott Vista in the UK!

John

As of Sep '98, import duty on software was 25%, so before VAT and import
taxes, that puts Vista price down to around UKBP245 which would include
shipping, handling and insurance..

So let's compare prices using more or less the same criteria..

UK = 245, US = 379..

I also understand that, even if the software CD was produced in the UK, that
it would be subject to import duty because the software itself is of US
origin..

HMG have everything nicely in place.. good luck..


"John John" wrote in message
...
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do
people expect to get the top Vista for nothing?

No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information for
this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about US$378.99 in
the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers supplied by
Shenan)

US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds

Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final
straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The
spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with
shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient
than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive.

It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD
level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper!

John

"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...

EU Regulations do not allow a manufacturer to fix retail prices

Not to hijack this but you've brought up something here. IPods retail for
just about the same price everywhere in the USA. It appears that Apple is
controlling the price and Microsoft had followed suit with their Zune. How
are IPods priced in the EU?

Whichever way you calculate it Mike, it comes to about the same numbers
that I gave earlier and that Shenan gave us, 315 Pounds + 17.5 VAT =
370.13 Pounds, what amazon.uk sells it for. My understanding is that
advertized prices in the UK must include the VAT, so the Amazon price
follows the prices you gave.

Without the taxes using the numbers you gave, £315.00 = US$619.41, a
spread of US$240.41. To me, in these days of globalization and free
trade that price difference seems out of whack and difficult to justify.

John

Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:
John

Brit price with no tax is UKBP315 against US$379..

Tax rates in the US range between 4 and 9%, I believe, and into double
figures in Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 14 and 16% respectively

Profit margins are smaller in North America generally, and none of us
have any idea how much is paid by the retailers on either continent..
the fact that the Brit price is so high in the UK does not necessarily
reflect the price paid from the manufacturer..

The UK, along with one or two other member countries, have failed to
adopt the Euro as regular currency, and as such is prone to varying
exchange rates in a way that other member countries may not be..

While I accept that the price difference is large, it is not right to
quote a price without tax against a price with tax, especially where the
tax rate is so high as in the UK..

Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for
goods manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from between
5 and 85%..

Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs..

I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this..

"John John" wrote in message
...

Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why
do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing?


No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information
for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about
US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon
numbers supplied by Shenan)

US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds

Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final
straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included.
The spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained
with shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more
inefficient than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive.

It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD
level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper!

John

John

Read my second post re import duty..


"John John" wrote in message
...
Whichever way you calculate it Mike, it comes to about the same numbers
that I gave earlier and that Shenan gave us, 315 Pounds + 17.5 VAT =
370.13 Pounds, what amazon.uk sells it for. My understanding is that
advertized prices in the UK must include the VAT, so the Amazon price
follows the prices you gave.

Without the taxes using the numbers you gave, £315.00 = US$619.41, a
spread of US$240.41. To me, in these days of globalization and free trade
that price difference seems out of whack and difficult to justify.

John

Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:
John

Brit price with no tax is UKBP315 against US$379..

Tax rates in the US range between 4 and 9%, I believe, and into double
figures in Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 14 and 16% respectively

Profit margins are smaller in North America generally, and none of us
have any idea how much is paid by the retailers on either continent.. the
fact that the Brit price is so high in the UK does not necessarily
reflect the price paid from the manufacturer..

The UK, along with one or two other member countries, have failed to
adopt the Euro as regular currency, and as such is prone to varying
exchange rates in a way that other member countries may not be..

While I accept that the price difference is large, it is not right to
quote a price without tax against a price with tax, especially where the
tax rate is so high as in the UK..

Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for goods
manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from between 5 and
85%..

Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs..

I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this..

"John John" wrote in message
...

Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do
people expect to get the top Vista for nothing?


No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information
for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about
US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers
supplied by Shenan)

US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds

Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final
straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The
spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with
shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient
than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive.

It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD
level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper!

John

Mike

Inline


Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:
Gerry

Whatever you do, don't blame the British retailers.. bless their
little souls, they are only trying to make an honest living.. and
they have been doing that since time immemorial, screwing the
British public for every last penny for all they are worth,
knowing damn well that the average Brit can't cross a national
border easily to get a better deal..

That is balloney. Crossing the channel from Dover to Calais with a
Transit Van to stock up with booze for personal consumption is very
popular. Importing cars from Belgium is also popular.

Have you ever lived in the UK?


All prices in North America do NOT include federal or
state/provincial taxes, unlike the UK where, unless one is a
middleman, ALL prices include ALL taxes.. if you see a product in
your local PC World or wherever, the price shown is what you will
expect to pay.. here in Canada, to buy a $499 dollar Vista
Ultimate, you would have to finally pay nearer $600 depending
upon province..

Prices displayed in retail outlets are normally inclusive of VAT.
Prices quoted in the commercial world are normally on an exclusive of
VAT basis. VAT is neutral in the world of business as, apart from
certain exceptions, any VAT paid on purchases is deducted from VAT
collected on sales and only the difference is paid over to Revenue and
Customs.

Rate of exchange $CAD 1.18 to $US 1.00. $US499 = $CAD589. Where's
your grievance?


Re economies of scale, the North American market is HUGE.. even
Macs sell in large numbers, way surpassing the 5 user customer
base in the UK (two in Croydon and three suspected Mac users out
in the UK wilds (all wanted for questioning re gross stupidity)..
towns with only 10000 inhabitants, large by Canadian standards
(96% of Canadian place names have a population of 300 or less
people), have as many as five retailers all selling computers..
UK residents have zero idea of the economies of scale here in
North America.. this is a 'throw away' society, and goods are
priced by the retailers accordingly..

I am not an economist but the larger the market does not produce ever
greater economies of scale. Indeed larger organisations can be less
efficient. The population per sq mile in the UK is far higher than the
US so distribution can be more efficient and offers greater
opportunities for cost savings than a a population dispersed over a
large land mass. Of course large parts of Canada are remote with a
very low population per sq mile.

Microsoft is dependent on world wide sales to recoup it's high
research and development costs. If those sales did not exist customers
in the US would need to pay significantly more for Microsoft products.


Re. pricing to retailers, there has always been a discount for
bulk purchases.. all manufacturers do it, whether producing
software, cigarettes or candy.. unfair on the small operation?
yes of course it is, but when you go into a store, do you not ask
for a discount if buying more than a few products at one time? I
have known Brits that do, and who expect a discount..

The debate is about pricing as it impacts on home users. Not many home
users in either country would qualify for bulk discounts. Large
retailers will gain discounts in both countries. No one is complaining
so I fail to see the relevance of your point.


I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing..
why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? would
these same people go into a BMW auto dealership and complain that
they need some of the features of a 7 series car but object and
cry 'unfair' to the $80,000 price tag? no, of course not.. if
they want a BMW, they buy one within their means and accept the
limitations or go look for some other product that more meets
their needs..

No one in the UK is asking for preferential treatment. We just want to
pay a "fair" price.





--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mike

A Brit can buy in Europe or the US if they wish. Who is going to stop
them?

Bah. The next minute you will ranting on about how wrong it was to be
taxed without representation.


--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User" wrote in
message ...
UK retailers have it all their own way.. isolated from all around
them by language. there is no competition.. a Brit can't go to a
Euro country and pick up English software versions..

the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to
those who seek to control in the UK, and continues to strut its
stuff.. Brits were lead to believe that foreigners were no better
than savages, where the reverse was actually the truth.. but the
people in North America fight back.. I watched a video of a US
family staying in the UK. they had rented an apartment so they could
get their own food and taken stockpiles of crisps and biscuits to
nibble on, politely refusing Brit food with the excuse that they
were not hungry.. too funny.. they had been told that the Brits eat
squirrel and other cute rodents.. surely, we ate squirrel only on
high days and holidays, unlike the country folk of Missouri where
squirrel, either shot or in road kill form, is daily fare..

Ken

Is Canada part of the US;-) ?


--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good
to


"Between"? That's odd. I had always though the UK was in Europe.
;-)

Well said John

Unless I am mistaken Mike's is not too hot on arithmetic G1


--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"John John" wrote in message
...
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing..
why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing?

No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting
information for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced
at about US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK.
(Amazon numbers supplied by Shenan)

US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds

Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the
final straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT
included. The spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be
simply explained with shipping costs or that the the UK economy is
that much more inefficient than the US or that the UK market is that
uncompetitive.

It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the
PhD level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper!

John

Gerry Cornell wrote:

Ken

Is Canada part of the US;-) ?


Certainly not.

But it is part of America! ;-)

--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup


Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good
to


"Between"? That's odd. I had always though the UK was in Europe.
;-)

Mike

The costs of importing are not easily ascertained but you are
exagerating. I found this link
http://www.taxationweb.co.uk/guides/customs_duty.php

Even assuming the highest rate of 25% that is a long way from your
85%. VAT will also be charged at 17.5% and there will also be shipping
costs.

However, if you like to send me a copy of Vista Ultimate in the post
as a gift a concessionary duty rate of 3% is all I would have to pay.
I think there also concessions on importing computer hardware but I
only noticed a brief reference to it.

I suspect that Import Duty is something that UK purchasers are not
aware of. Apparently there are in excess of 10,000 Tariff categories
and they are not easily accessed casually. I am wondering whether
there might be a way to find out the rate of duty on computer
software.

--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User" wrote in
message ...
John


Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for
goods manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from
between 5 and 85%..

Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs..

I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this..

"John John" wrote in message

Mike

Stop comparing apples with oranges.

If Vista Ultimate cost $379 in the US add 50% for VAT import duty and
shipping gives $559. Convert at $1.9659 to £ and result is UK resident
should pay £289. However, if purchased retail from Amazon UK it costs
£351. An amount of £62 or just over 20% is going somewhere?

Actually it is more than that because import duty is not levied on the
retail price but on the cost to the importer, which will be a
wholesale price.


--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:
John

As of Sep '98, import duty on software was 25%, so before VAT and
import taxes, that puts Vista price down to around UKBP245 which
would include shipping, handling and insurance..

So let's compare prices using more or less the same criteria..

UK = 245, US = 379..

I also understand that, even if the software CD was produced in
the UK, that it would be subject to import duty because the
software itself is of US origin..

HMG have everything nicely in place.. good luck..

Gerry

The OS language version would stop most Brits..


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...

Mike

A Brit can buy in Europe or the US if they wish. Who is going to stop
them?

Bah. The next minute you will ranting on about how wrong it was to be
taxed without representation.


--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User" wrote in
message ...
UK retailers have it all their own way.. isolated from all around them by
language. there is no competition.. a Brit can't go to a Euro country and
pick up English software versions..

the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to those
who seek to control in the UK, and continues to strut its stuff.. Brits
were lead to believe that foreigners were no better than savages, where
the reverse was actually the truth.. but the people in North America
fight back.. I watched a video of a US family staying in the UK. they had
rented an apartment so they could get their own food and taken stockpiles
of crisps and biscuits to nibble on, politely refusing Brit food with the
excuse that they were not hungry.. too funny.. they had been told that
the Brits eat squirrel and other cute rodents.. surely, we ate squirrel
only on high days and holidays, unlike the country folk of Missouri where
squirrel, either shot or in road kill form, is daily fare..

Gerry

It's ok.. I will leave you to blame MS for it all.. I really don't care..
and yes, I did live in the UK, was born in the UK and was a business
consultant in the UK..


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Mike

Inline


Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:
Gerry

Whatever you do, don't blame the British retailers.. bless their
little souls, they are only trying to make an honest living.. and
they have been doing that since time immemorial, screwing the
British public for every last penny for all they are worth,
knowing damn well that the average Brit can't cross a national
border easily to get a better deal..

That is balloney. Crossing the channel from Dover to Calais with a Transit
Van to stock up with booze for personal consumption is very popular.
Importing cars from Belgium is also popular.

Have you ever lived in the UK?


All prices in North America do NOT include federal or
state/provincial taxes, unlike the UK where, unless one is a
middleman, ALL prices include ALL taxes.. if you see a product in
your local PC World or wherever, the price shown is what you will
expect to pay.. here in Canada, to buy a $499 dollar Vista
Ultimate, you would have to finally pay nearer $600 depending
upon province..

Prices displayed in retail outlets are normally inclusive of VAT. Prices
quoted in the commercial world are normally on an exclusive of VAT basis.
VAT is neutral in the world of business as, apart from certain exceptions,
any VAT paid on purchases is deducted from VAT collected on sales and only
the difference is paid over to Revenue and Customs.

Rate of exchange $CAD 1.18 to $US 1.00. $US499 = $CAD589. Where's your
grievance?


Re economies of scale, the North American market is HUGE.. even
Macs sell in large numbers, way surpassing the 5 user customer
base in the UK (two in Croydon and three suspected Mac users out
in the UK wilds (all wanted for questioning re gross stupidity)..
towns with only 10000 inhabitants, large by Canadian standards
(96% of Canadian place names have a population of 300 or less
people), have as many as five retailers all selling computers..
UK residents have zero idea of the economies of scale here in
North America.. this is a 'throw away' society, and goods are
priced by the retailers accordingly..

I am not an economist but the larger the market does not produce ever
greater economies of scale. Indeed larger organisations can be less
efficient. The population per sq mile in the UK is far higher than the US
so distribution can be more efficient and offers greater opportunities for
cost savings than a a population dispersed over a large land mass. Of
course large parts of Canada are remote with a very low population per sq
mile.

Microsoft is dependent on world wide sales to recoup it's high research
and development costs. If those sales did not exist customers in the US
would need to pay significantly more for Microsoft products.


Re. pricing to retailers, there has always been a discount for
bulk purchases.. all manufacturers do it, whether producing
software, cigarettes or candy.. unfair on the small operation?
yes of course it is, but when you go into a store, do you not ask
for a discount if buying more than a few products at one time? I
have known Brits that do, and who expect a discount..

The debate is about pricing as it impacts on home users. Not many home
users in either country would qualify for bulk discounts. Large retailers
will gain discounts in both countries. No one is complaining so I fail to
see the relevance of your point.


I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing..
why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? would
these same people go into a BMW auto dealership and complain that
they need some of the features of a 7 series car but object and
cry 'unfair' to the $80,000 price tag? no, of course not.. if
they want a BMW, they buy one within their means and accept the
limitations or go look for some other product that more meets
their needs..

No one in the UK is asking for preferential treatment. We just want to pay
a "fair" price.





--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mike

In theory it should not but I have not been able to check out what is
on offer in Europe. I tried to find an online retailer in Holland,
where many speak excellent English, but drew a blank.

--

Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:
Gerry

The OS language version would stop most Brits..


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...

Mike

A Brit can buy in Europe or the US if they wish. Who is going to
stop them?

Bah. The next minute you will ranting on about how wrong it was
to be taxed without representation.


--

Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User"
wrote in message ...
UK retailers have it all their own way.. isolated from all
around them by language. there is no competition.. a Brit can't
go to a Euro country and pick up English software versions..

the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good
to those who seek to control in the UK, and continues to strut
its stuff.. Brits were lead to believe that foreigners were no
better than savages, where the reverse was actually the truth..
but the people in North America fight back.. I watched a video
of a US family staying in the UK. they had rented an apartment
so they could get their own food and taken stockpiles of crisps
and biscuits to nibble on, politely refusing Brit food with the
excuse that they were not hungry.. too funny.. they had been
told that the Brits eat squirrel and other cute rodents..
surely, we ate squirrel only on high days and holidays, unlike
the country folk of Missouri where squirrel, either shot or in
road kill form, is daily fare..

The European Union and its member countries are signatories to the WTO
Information Technology Agreement (ITA) concluded in December 1996,
tariff on software is 0%.

John

Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:
John

Read my second post re import duty..


"John John" wrote in message
...

Whichever way you calculate it Mike, it comes to about the same
numbers that I gave earlier and that Shenan gave us, 315 Pounds + 17.5
VAT = 370.13 Pounds, what amazon.uk sells it for. My understanding is
that advertized prices in the UK must include the VAT, so the Amazon
price follows the prices you gave.

Without the taxes using the numbers you gave, £315.00 = US$619.41, a
spread of US$240.41. To me, in these days of globalization and free
trade that price difference seems out of whack and difficult to justify.

John

Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:

John

Brit price with no tax is UKBP315 against US$379..

Tax rates in the US range between 4 and 9%, I believe, and into
double figures in Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 14 and 16% respectively

Profit margins are smaller in North America generally, and none of us
have any idea how much is paid by the retailers on either continent..
the fact that the Brit price is so high in the UK does not
necessarily reflect the price paid from the manufacturer..

The UK, along with one or two other member countries, have failed to
adopt the Euro as regular currency, and as such is prone to varying
exchange rates in a way that other member countries may not be..

While I accept that the price difference is large, it is not right to
quote a price without tax against a price with tax, especially where
the tax rate is so high as in the UK..

Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for
goods manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from
between 5 and 85%..

Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs..

I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this..

"John John" wrote in message
...

Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing..
why do people expect to get the top Vista for nothing?



No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting
information for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced
at about US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK.
(Amazon numbers supplied by Shenan)

US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds

Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the
final straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT
included. The spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be
simply explained with shipping costs or that the the UK economy is
that much more inefficient than the US or that the UK market is that
uncompetitive.

It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the
PhD level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper!

John