Start Menu 8 or Start10?

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 07:42:15 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:



"Ken Blake" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 17:33:10 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
m...
In the UK, people are strongly encouraged to take their driving test
in
a
manual car because that qualifies them to drive both automatic and
manual,
whereas if you take your test in an automatic (maybe because you only
ever
intend to drive automatics), that is all you are allowed to drive;


In the US (at least in all the states I know about) a license
qualifies you to drive either. There aren't two different kinds of
licenses.

Interesting that in the US you are allowed to drive a manual having (in
all
probability) only ever driven an automatic.


Your way is better than ours, as far as I'm concerned.

When I got my first license in '63, I used my dad's car, which was an
automatic ('58 Plymouth Fury, a lumbering beast). Since it was an
automatic
and not a manual, my license was stamped "Automatic only."



In the US? That's new to me. What state?

South Carolina. No pictured licenses back then, just heavy paper. The stamp
was just a rubber stamp with dark red ink :-)

On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 05:49:18 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:



"Ken Blake" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 07:42:15 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:



"Ken Blake" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 17:33:10 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
om...
In the UK, people are strongly encouraged to take their driving test
in
a
manual car because that qualifies them to drive both automatic and
manual,
whereas if you take your test in an automatic (maybe because you only
ever
intend to drive automatics), that is all you are allowed to drive;


In the US (at least in all the states I know about) a license
qualifies you to drive either. There aren't two different kinds of
licenses.

Interesting that in the US you are allowed to drive a manual having (in
all
probability) only ever driven an automatic.


Your way is better than ours, as far as I'm concerned.

When I got my first license in '63, I used my dad's car, which was an
automatic ('58 Plymouth Fury, a lumbering beast). Since it was an
automatic
and not a manual, my license was stamped "Automatic only."



In the US? That's new to me. What state?

South Carolina.


I should have guessed that from "SC Tom."

Do they still do that in South Carolina?

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 05:49:18 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:



"Ken Blake" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 07:42:15 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:



"Ken Blake" wrote in message
m...
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 17:33:10 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
news:79n5qcdba9c7jte90udhsmmj461lorsl2q@4ax. com...
In the UK, people are strongly encouraged to take their driving test
in
a
manual car because that qualifies them to drive both automatic and
manual,
whereas if you take your test in an automatic (maybe because you
only
ever
intend to drive automatics), that is all you are allowed to drive;


In the US (at least in all the states I know about) a license
qualifies you to drive either. There aren't two different kinds of
licenses.

Interesting that in the US you are allowed to drive a manual having
(in
all
probability) only ever driven an automatic.


Your way is better than ours, as far as I'm concerned.

When I got my first license in '63, I used my dad's car, which was an
automatic ('58 Plymouth Fury, a lumbering beast). Since it was an
automatic
and not a manual, my license was stamped "Automatic only."



In the US? That's new to me. What state?

South Carolina.


I should have guessed that from "SC Tom."

Do they still do that in South Carolina?

No, but I don't know when they quit. I left here in '65 and didn't return
until '85. By that that time, they had regular plastic licenses with
pictures, just like my Michigan and Maryland licenses. Neither of those
states differentiated between auto and manual when I got licenses there.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 06:58:51 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:



"Ken Blake" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 05:49:18 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:



"Ken Blake" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 07:42:15 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:



"Ken Blake" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 17:33:10 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
news:79n5qcdba9c7jte90udhsmmj461lorsl2q@4ax .com...
In the UK, people are strongly encouraged to take their driving test
in
a
manual car because that qualifies them to drive both automatic and
manual,
whereas if you take your test in an automatic (maybe because you
only
ever
intend to drive automatics), that is all you are allowed to drive;


In the US (at least in all the states I know about) a license
qualifies you to drive either. There aren't two different kinds of
licenses.

Interesting that in the US you are allowed to drive a manual having
(in
all
probability) only ever driven an automatic.


Your way is better than ours, as far as I'm concerned.

When I got my first license in '63, I used my dad's car, which was an
automatic ('58 Plymouth Fury, a lumbering beast). Since it was an
automatic
and not a manual, my license was stamped "Automatic only."



In the US? That's new to me. What state?

South Carolina.


I should have guessed that from "SC Tom."

Do they still do that in South Carolina?

No, but I don't know when they quit. I left here in '65 and didn't return
until '85. By that that time, they had regular plastic licenses with
pictures, just like my Michigan and Maryland licenses. Neither of those
states differentiated between auto and manual when I got licenses there.

Same in NY, NJ, and AZ, the three states I've lived in.

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 15:14:15 +0200, s|b wrote:

My mother's new computer came with Windows 10 Home. She was using
Windows 7 Home Premium on her old laptop and to make the transition a
bit easer I want to install either Start Menu 8 or Start10. Has anybody
tried these programs? Which do you prefer and is there a Dutch
translation available?

Well, I spoke to my mother today and I could see she was confused when I
started telling about Classic Shell, Start10, StartIsBack and Start Menu
8. Turns out she doesn't use the Start Menu all that much, mostly for
shutting down the PC.

Some basic icons (Fx, Edge, Thunderbird, Explorer, ...) are on her
Taskbar and several other are on her Desktop. So we decided that I will
put several apps/programs in her Start Menu and see how that works out.

So I'm not going to install anything, but I'm grateful for all the
responses. I learned a lot from them, so thank you all!

--
s|b

s|b wrote:
On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 15:14:15 +0200, s|b wrote:

My mother's new computer came with Windows 10 Home. She was using
Windows 7 Home Premium on her old laptop and to make the transition a
bit easer I want to install either Start Menu 8 or Start10. Has anybody
tried these programs? Which do you prefer and is there a Dutch
translation available?

Well, I spoke to my mother today and I could see she was confused when I
started telling about Classic Shell, Start10, StartIsBack and Start Menu
8. Turns out she doesn't use the Start Menu all that much, mostly for
shutting down the PC.

Some basic icons (Fx, Edge, Thunderbird, Explorer, ...) are on her
Taskbar and several other are on her Desktop. So we decided that I will
put several apps/programs in her Start Menu and see how that works out.

So I'm not going to install anything, but I'm grateful for all the
responses. I learned a lot from them, so thank you all!


If she is only using the Start Menu for power down, then
you can introduce the topic of "Alt-F4".

If a program window has the focus, Alt-F4 ends the program.
This was used early in Windows 8, when Metro Apps didn't have
an "X" in the upper right hand corner, and you "needed to
make your escape". Using Alt-F4 would get you out of a
full-screen Metro App (or regular Windows programs too).
Click inside the boundaries of an application window,
then Alt-F4 should end the program (similar to Quit).

If you click the desktop and leave the mouse outside
any program menus, pressing Alt-F4 brings up a centered dialog
with various shutdown options. (Sleep, Hibernate, and friends.)
That works for me in WinXP too, to give some idea how
far back it goes. I can't really say what OS was the first
to support that.

There have been Insider editions of Win10, where the Start menu
Power button was broken or missing, and Alt-F4 was how you
ended up shutting down the OS. Sometimes that alternate, is
all you've got for control.

That key combo is worth learning... Houdini used that one when
locked in a trunk.

Paul

On 8/30/2017 5:15 PM, s|b wrote:
On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 15:14:15 +0200, s|b wrote:

My mother's new computer came with Windows 10 Home. She was using
Windows 7 Home Premium on her old laptop and to make the transition a
bit easer I want to install either Start Menu 8 or Start10. Has anybody
tried these programs? Which do you prefer and is there a Dutch
translation available?

Well, I spoke to my mother today and I could see she was confused when I
started telling about Classic Shell, Start10, StartIsBack and Start Menu
8. Turns out she doesn't use the Start Menu all that much, mostly for
shutting down the PC.

Some basic icons (Fx, Edge, Thunderbird, Explorer, ...) are on her
Taskbar and several other are on her Desktop. So we decided that I will
put several apps/programs in her Start Menu and see how that works out.

So I'm not going to install anything, but I'm grateful for all the
responses. I learned a lot from them, so thank you all!

If that is the case I would add those programs she has on the Taskbar to
the Windows 10 Taskbar, and add them to the start menu.

For those programs she has on the desktop I would put short cuts to
those programs on her Wndows 10 desktop, and add them to the start menu.

As for shutting the PC down tell her the old start icon is now the white
MS Icon. and let her continue shutting the computer down as she always
has done.

Right click the MS icon; select "Shut Down or Signout"; "Shut Down"

As a way to get her thinking about the Start Menu, tell her she can also
right click on the MS Icon; click the Power icon; and select "Shut Down"

Left or Right Click the path to shut down is the line/icon at the bottom
of what pops up.

In this way you can slowly wean her from the now obsolete Window 7
--
2017: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre

Amen.

NY wrote on 8/26/2017 1:06 PM:
"s|b" wrote in message
...
My mother's new computer came with Windows 10 Home. She was using
Windows 7 Home Premium on her old laptop and to make the transition a
bit easer I want to install either Start Menu 8 or Start10. Has anybody
tried these programs? Which do you prefer and is there a Dutch
translation available?

Start Menu 8 (free)
http://www.iobit.com/en/iobitstartmenu8.php

Start10 ($4.99)
https://www.stardock.com/products/start10/

(I'm aware there's also Classic Shell. I'm not interested in Classic
Shell.)

What's wrong with Classic Shell - or what does it not do that Start 8/10 do?

I've found Classic Shell to be fine. Occasionally it gets turned off by a
Windows update, but it's easy enough to reinstall it when that happens. Are
Start 8/10 more resilient to being disabled by Windows updates?

Anything is better than the "mess of tiles" of the Windows 8 start menu. The
whole point of icons is that they should be easily distinguishable from each
other and that you should be able to pin them to specific parts of the
desktop so you can go straight to the correct icon by screen position as
much as by icon picture. The Mess of Tiles has icons which are not
sufficiently distinctive and icons which change place on the menu (maybe
depending on which apps you use more frequently).

The idea of pinning icons to the taskbar is one I find counter-intuitive: I
prefer to have two distinct places on the taskbar: one a set of links to
applications that I might want to run, and the other a list of the
applications that are actually running. Combining the two, with only an
underline distinguishing running from potentially-running applications, is
too confusing.

The problem with Windows 8 and 10 is not that they added the new features
like the "mess of tiles" and the combined taskbar, but that they *removed*
the older legacy features. I'm one of those people who believes in "get it
right first time so you NEVER have to change radically - evolution, rather
than revolution".

Classic Shell (and no doubt Start 8/10) restore the user *choice* as to
which UI is used.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 17:49:55 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:

snip
As for shutting the PC down tell her the old start icon is now the white
MS Icon. and let her continue shutting the computer down as she always
has done.

snip
In this way you can slowly wean her from the now obsolete Window 7

I assume you simply misspoke when you said that Windows 7 is obsolete.
As I'm sure you know, that's not the case.

Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 17:49:55 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:

snip
As for shutting the PC down tell her the old start icon is now the white
MS Icon. and let her continue shutting the computer down as she always
has done.

snip
In this way you can slowly wean her from the now obsolete Window 7

I assume you simply misspoke when you said that Windows 7 is obsolete.
As I'm sure you know, that's not the case.


It's alive and well and living in the other newsgroup :-)

It's serving TV to me as we speak.

Paul

"Keith Nuttle" wrote in message
news
Right click the MS icon; select "Shut Down or Signout"; "Shut Down"

As a way to get her thinking about the Start Menu, tell her she can also
right click on the MS Icon; click the Power icon; and select "Shut Down"

The one thing to be wary of with Windows 10 - and this applies more to
people with *some* knowledge of the inner-workings of a PC, rather than to a
complete novice or who uses the computer as a means to an end (browsing,
email, WP) - is that "Shutdown" doesn't do what it used to do in Win 7 and
older.

I do PC support for people in my neighbourhood, and I've encountered a
number of situations when the PC had got into a "strange state" and needed
to be rebooted. The problem is that people who have used older versions of
Windows think that "Shutdown" will cause the PC to start afresh when they
next turn it on, clearing any "strange state" fault. But it doesn't: it puts
the PC into suspended animation (like sleep and hibernate) such that when it
is turned on, it resumes where it left off, still in the "strange state".
They know that they need to perform the clichéd "turn it off and back on"
but don't realise that by selecting Shutdown they haven't done this.

With anyone who is used to Win 7, I now warn them that if they need to
reboot to clear a fault, they need to select "Restart" on the power menu.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 10:57:17 +0100, "NY" wrote:


The problem is that people who have used older versions of
Windows think that "Shutdown" will cause the PC to start afresh when they
next turn it on, clearing any "strange state" fault. But it doesn't: it puts
the PC into suspended animation (like sleep and hibernate) such that when it
is turned on, it resumes where it left off, still in the "strange state".
They know that they need to perform the clichéd "turn it off and back on"
but don't realise that by selecting Shutdown they haven't done this.

With anyone who is used to Win 7, I now warn them that if they need to
reboot to clear a fault, they need to select "Restart" on the power menu.



Perhaps my memory is faulty, but If I remember correctly, Shutdown and
Restart are exactly the same as they used to be.

NY wrote:
"Keith Nuttle" wrote in message
news
Right click the MS icon; select "Shut Down or Signout"; "Shut Down"

As a way to get her thinking about the Start Menu, tell her she can
also right click on the MS Icon; click the Power icon; and select
"Shut Down"

The one thing to be wary of with Windows 10 - and this applies more to
people with *some* knowledge of the inner-workings of a PC, rather than
to a complete novice or who uses the computer as a means to an end
(browsing, email, WP) - is that "Shutdown" doesn't do what it used to do
in Win 7 and older.

I do PC support for people in my neighbourhood, and I've encountered a
number of situations when the PC had got into a "strange state" and
needed to be rebooted. The problem is that people who have used older
versions of Windows think that "Shutdown" will cause the PC to start
afresh when they next turn it on, clearing any "strange state" fault.
But it doesn't: it puts the PC into suspended animation (like sleep and
hibernate) such that when it is turned on, it resumes where it left off,
still in the "strange state". They know that they need to perform the
clichéd "turn it off and back on" but don't realise that by selecting
Shutdown they haven't done this.

With anyone who is used to Win 7, I now warn them that if they need to
reboot to clear a fault, they need to select "Restart" on the power menu.

You're referring to kernel hibernation, which is different than session
hibernation.

In the appropriate interface, kernel hibernation is labeled as
the "Fast Boot" feature. It reloads the kernel as a memory image
and warm starts the drivers (drivers re-initialize hardware registers
when the kernel is next started).

All forms of hibernation, can be stopped with

powercfg /h off

The Fast Boot, if that's the only one you want to fix...

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/...dows-10-a.html

(Top one, of the group of four tick boxes.)

https://www.tenforums.com/attachment..._startup-2.jpg

If you're in Win10, and want to boot your Macrium Reflect Free CD,
you may find you don't get a chance to select booting from the CD,
for as long as that hibernate bit is being used.

For a number of reasons, I just use the "/h off" thing, as it's
easier to find. Hibernating my entire machine can take too long,
so I don't want either feature (kernel or session) hibernation
to ever delay what I'm doing, or interfere with my CD/DVD booting.

Other users will probably want their hibernate to work, and it
all depends on how much RAM needs to be hibernated, as to how
practical this is.

Paul

Ken Blake wrote on 8/31/2017 1:22 PM:
On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 10:57:17 +0100, "NY" wrote:


The problem is that people who have used older versions of
Windows think that "Shutdown" will cause the PC to start afresh when they
next turn it on, clearing any "strange state" fault. But it doesn't: it puts
the PC into suspended animation (like sleep and hibernate) such that when it
is turned on, it resumes where it left off, still in the "strange state".
They know that they need to perform the clichéd "turn it off and back on"
but don't realise that by selecting Shutdown they haven't done this.

With anyone who is used to Win 7, I now warn them that if they need to
reboot to clear a fault, they need to select "Restart" on the power menu.



Perhaps my memory is faulty, but If I remember correctly, Shutdown and
Restart are exactly the same as they used to be.


Apparently, if you are using Fast Startup, shutdown puts the computer in
a hibernate-like condition, so you have to execute

shutdown /s /f /t 0

to get a true shutdown.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 17:49:55 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:

As for shutting the PC down tell her the old start icon is now the white
MS Icon. and let her continue shutting the computer down as she always
has done.

Right click the MS icon; select "Shut Down or Signout"; "Shut Down"

Already taught her that one. I suggested to create a shortcut with the
Shutdown.exe icon to help her with shutting down, but she wouldn't have
it. :-)

--
s|b