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Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?



 
 
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  #271  
Old January 6th 18, 09:49 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Andre G. Isaak
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Posts: 27
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article ,
Diesel wrote:

nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a windows
shortcoming.


A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal user
is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?

How many normal users even know there's 255 characters in the ASCII
table in the first place?


There's 128 characters in ASCII, not 255.

Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time now so
ASCII isn't really relevant.

Andre

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  #272  
Old January 6th 18, 05:16 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Paul Magnussen
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Posts: 4
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Andre G. Isaak wrote:

Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time now so
ASCII isn't really relevant.


How long, exactly? Anybody know?

The reason I ask is that I often have to deal with legacy files (and
software), so it would be useful to know the cut-off point(s).

Paul Magnussen
  #273  
Old January 6th 18, 05:54 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
nospam
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Posts: 1,671
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Paul
Magnussen wrote:


Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time now so
ASCII isn't really relevant.


How long, exactly? Anybody know?


mac os 8.5, in 1998.
  #274  
Old January 7th 18, 01:54 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
nospam
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Posts: 1,671
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Wolf K
wrote:

Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time now
so ASCII isn't really relevant.


How long, exactly?* Anybody know?

The reason I ask is that I often have to deal with legacy files (and
software), so it would be useful to know the cut-off point(s).


ASCII may no longer be the "preferred" character set, but it's still
used here and there. IOW, there is no "cutoff date". Best to assume that
ASCII lurks in the nooks and crannies of some software until proven
otherwise.


it's obsolete.
  #275  
Old January 7th 18, 03:06 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Andre G. Isaak
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Posts: 27
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article ,
Wolf K wrote:

On 2018-01-06 12:16, Paul Magnussen wrote:
Andre G. Isaak wrote:

Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time now
so ASCII isn't really relevant.


How long, exactly?¬* Anybody know?

The reason I ask is that I often have to deal with legacy files (and
software), so it would be useful to know the cut-off point(s).

Paul Magnussen


ASCII may no longer be the "preferred" character set, but it's still
used here and there. IOW, there is no "cutoff date". Best to assume that
ASCII lurks in the nooks and crannies of some software until proven
otherwise.


Anything written in ASCII is valid UTF-8, so it isn't going to pose any
problems for modern operating systems.

Andre

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  #276  
Old January 7th 18, 04:55 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Lewis
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Posts: 341
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message Paul Magnussen wrote:
Andre G. Isaak wrote:


Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time now so
ASCII isn't really relevant.


How long, exactly? Anybody know?


OS X had Unicode from the beginning. It was added to the old Mac OS in
8.1 or 8.5, IIRC.

No idea when Windows added it, but I don't think it was there in XP.
They did have support for UTF-16 (WHY?!?!) in Windows 2000. I also know
that Windows 7 does not support UTF-8 and I am reasonably sure that
Windows 10 is still using the vastly inferior UTF-16, but don't know if
UTF-8 is possible.

(Microsoft still claims UTF-16 is the most common Unicode encoding,
which is a flat out lie)

--
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  #277  
Old January 8th 18, 10:00 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Diesel
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Posts: 830
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

nospam
Fri, 05 Jan 2018
17:29:29 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

Okay, so you can press two keys instead when if using the alt
method on Windows, I have to press a total of four. Alt and the
corresponding keycode representing the ascii character. like Ŗ
(that's alt 225).


it's one key & a modifier, no different than holding shift while
typing 3 for #, or shift and = for +.

your four keys are in sequence and far slower, plus it requires
memorizing numbers for each character, which is absurd.


far slower is a matter of debate, I suppose. Mostly depending on how
fast/slow one types.

For me, I can bring up a simple 'chart' to see all the characters
along with their corresponding codes, so I don't have to memorize
each option+character to do it.


that's also an option, but it's slower.


Perhaps by milliseconds...


mac os x, with unix under the hood, uses c strings, where null
indicates the end of a string. therefore null *can't* be part of a
string.


I'm aware of the differences in the way *nix treats string
terminations vs that of DOS/Windows.

that's because windows has a lot of limitations that don't
exist on other systems.


Those aforementioned limitations predate Windows by several
years. Windows provides backward compatability to a point and
that's why those reserved characters are still present today.
They come from the days of DOS and OS's very similiar to DOS,
but, not being DOS as you know it on the PC platform. Due to
backwards compatability, it's necessary for Windows to follow
certain rules setup long before it existed.


in other words, carrying on the mistakes of the past.


That's one way of looking at it, sure. Another way, as I previously
stated is backwards compatability with hundreds of thousands of older
applications people relied on and didn't want to lose by 'upgrading'
their copy of Windows and/or installing Windows in the first place.


It's not a bug. It's an association issue. For the most part,
Windows associates extensions with the app chosen to open them,
unless it examines the file header when you opt to open it and
chooses the best program based on the file header. .reg is
associated with registry editor, for example.


if the user renames a file causing it to lose its association,
it's a bug. simple as that.


Again, it's not a bug. It's a difference in the way Windows and your
mac treat files. Your macs also do the association thing, but, in a
different way.

on a mac, that doesn't happen.


Not too long ago, transferring files created on a mac to a non mac
system was a pain in the ass because the mac had additional data
concerning the file that wasn't with the file itself. Requiring you
to take additional steps to ensure the file could be transferred
properly through the non mac back to another mac without losing
anything in the process. That to me, is a poor design. Works great
for mac to mac, but, not so good when you leave the world of mac.

A mac stores this information elsewhere as meta data. It's just
not as straight forward as Windows is concerning file
associations.


it's actually very straightforward and was *well* ahead of its
time.


On that we'll agree to disagree.



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  #278  
Old January 8th 18, 10:00 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Diesel
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Posts: 830
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Lewis
Fri, 05 Jan 2018 20:50:54
GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

In message Diesel
wrote:
nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:


needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a
windows shortcoming.


A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal
user is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?


Zo√ę, Chlo√ę, Anton√*a, and the billions of people who don't speak
English.

for example:
option-g ©
option-2 ¬Ā
option-p ¬ľ


Okay, so you can press two keys instead when if using the alt
method on Windows, I have to press a total of four.


And you have to memorize that 0163 means something and 1064 means
something entirely different.

option-e + a vowel puts an accute accent on the vowel. Option-u
plus a vowel puts √ľ over the vowel. So I don't have to remember a
different 4 digit code for √ę and √ľ and √∂.

Alt and the
corresponding keycode representing the ascii character.


Which is an idiotic UI.


It wasn't invented with Windows. Again, it predates Windows and isn't
the only manner of doing it.

For me, I can bring up a simple 'chart' to see all the characters
along with their corresponding codes, so I don't have to memorize
each option+character to do it.


Yeah, that's a great solution. Bring up a chart.


People who write code or design web pages without the use of 'do it
all for you, you just draw pretty pictures' are used to doing this.





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  #279  
Old January 8th 18, 10:00 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Diesel
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Posts: 830
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

"Andre G. Isaak"
Sat,
06 Jan 2018 09:49:39 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

In article ,
Diesel wrote:

nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a
windows shortcoming.


A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal
user is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?

How many normal users even know there's 255 characters in the
ASCII table in the first place?


There's 128 characters in ASCII, not 255.


There's actually 256 characters in the ASCII character set.

Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time
now so ASCII isn't really relevant.


You clearly don't know what unicode is actually doing then...


--
To prevent yourself from being a victim of cyber
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  #280  
Old January 8th 18, 10:00 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Diesel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 830
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Lewis
Fri, 05 Jan 2018 20:56:34
GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

In message Diesel
wrote:
Lewis


NULL cannot be used anywhere in a filename in Windows.


Well, actually, it can. But the file manager won't like you for
doing it. The OS itself doesn't care, as long as the first
character isn't a null.


Go tell microsoft they are wrong then. They specifically note that
NULL is forbidden and also mention that all codes under ASCII(32)
are forbidden. But I am sure you know better than Microsoft.


More importantly, I know why MS doesn't want you to use those codes.

what you wrote isn't entirely true. You can use a few of the ones
from the 32 or less set, but not all of them.


See above. Microsoft say you can't.


Microsoft says lots of things which aren't true, though. For a
variety of reasons.



--
To prevent yourself from being a victim of cyber
stalking, it's highly recommended you visit he
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  #281  
Old January 8th 18, 11:28 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,671
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article
c4z38p.4qHzfw,
Diesel wrote:


Not too long ago, transferring files created on a mac to a non mac
system was a pain in the ass because the mac had additional data
concerning the file that wasn't with the file itself. Requiring you
to take additional steps to ensure the file could be transferred
properly through the non mac back to another mac without losing
anything in the process. That to me, is a poor design. Works great
for mac to mac, but, not so good when you leave the world of mac.


no extra steps were required. mac comm software took care of the
details.

i used to send/receive files using a mac via x/y/z-modem as well as ftp
to/from a variety of systems, from pc clones to unix workstations to
mainframes without any issues whatsoever.

tl;dr user error.
  #282  
Old January 9th 18, 12:20 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Peter Köhlmann[_3_]
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Posts: 225
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Diesel wrote:

"Andre G. Isaak"
Sat,
06 Jan 2018 09:49:39 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

In article ,
Diesel wrote:

nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a
windows shortcoming.

A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal
user is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?

How many normal users even know there's 255 characters in the
ASCII table in the first place?


There's 128 characters in ASCII, not 255.


There's actually 256 characters in the ASCII character set.


No, it isn't.

*If* you had some point (you don't), it would be max 255 characters
(inclduing the control-characters)
256 characters is already extending the set to using 1 bit more (you need 9
bits for that, not just 8)
And ASCII uses only the first 7 bits of a character, so it is only 127
characters in the ASCII set. The character sets using 8 bits are the
"extended ASCII" sets used by windows and OS/2.
They have nothing to do with Unicode (neither UTF-8 nor UTF-16)

Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time
now so ASCII isn't really relevant.


You clearly don't know what unicode is actually doing then...



Well, you certainly don't have the foggiest.

  #283  
Old January 9th 18, 01:56 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Andre G. Isaak
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article
c4z38p.4qHzfw,
Diesel wrote:

"Andre G. Isaak"
Sat,
06 Jan 2018 09:49:39 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

In article ,
Diesel wrote:

nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a
windows shortcoming.

A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal
user is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?

How many normal users even know there's 255 characters in the
ASCII table in the first place?


There's 128 characters in ASCII, not 255.


There's actually 256 characters in the ASCII character set.


ASCII is a 7-bit code. Always has been. Windows 1252, ISO Latin 1,
MacRoman, etc. may support 256 characters, but none of these are ASCII.

Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time
now so ASCII isn't really relevant.


You clearly don't know what unicode is actually doing then...


You're really going to have to clarify that...

Andre

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  #284  
Old January 9th 18, 03:30 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Diesel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 830
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Peter =?UTF-8?B?S8O2aGxtYW5u?=
news alt.windows7.general, wrote:

Diesel wrote:

"Andre G. Isaak"

Sat, 06 Jan 2018 09:49:39 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

In article ,
Diesel wrote:

nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a
windows shortcoming.

A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the
numeric keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the
extended ascii characters if one so desired. But the point
remains, what normal user is going to search for characters
that aren't shown on their keyboards?

How many normal users even know there's 255 characters in the
ASCII table in the first place?

There's 128 characters in ASCII, not 255.


There's actually 256 characters in the ASCII character set.


No, it isn't.


255, my bad. That includes extended ascii etc... though. And yes, I
understand that strictly speaking, extended ascii is not an addition
to the original ASCII set, which is 128 characters. That being said
though, when I said ASCII table I wasn't isolating 128 original
characters but the entire character set. And I'm not sure how the
person who responded could have not known that?

Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time
now so ASCII isn't really relevant.


You clearly don't know what unicode is actually doing then...



Well, you certainly don't have the foggiest.


Sure I do. Perhaps you've never heard the term "Wide body ASCII" to
describe Unicode? It's an encoding format and there's more than one
of them. Several ASCII characters are used to represent a single
value in Unicode.

Technical information
Unicode number
U+0114
HTML-code
Ĕ
Latin Capital Letter E with Breve


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  #285  
Old January 9th 18, 05:30 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Andre G. Isaak
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article
lWdq24vx00ICu1,
Diesel wrote:

Peter =?UTF-8?B?S8O2aGxtYW5u?=
news alt.windows7.general, wrote:

Diesel wrote:

"Andre G. Isaak"

Sat, 06 Jan 2018 09:49:39 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

In article ,
Diesel wrote:

nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a
windows shortcoming.

A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the
numeric keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the
extended ascii characters if one so desired. But the point
remains, what normal user is going to search for characters
that aren't shown on their keyboards?

How many normal users even know there's 255 characters in the
ASCII table in the first place?

There's 128 characters in ASCII, not 255.

There's actually 256 characters in the ASCII character set.


No, it isn't.


255, my bad. That includes extended ascii etc... though. And yes, I
understand that strictly speaking, extended ascii is not an addition
to the original ASCII set, which is 128 characters. That being said
though, when I said ASCII table I wasn't isolating 128 original
characters but the entire character set. And I'm not sure how the
person who responded could have not known that?


There is no such thing as extended ASCII. Stating that there are 256
characters in the ASCII table is just plain wrong. If you were intending
to mean some 8-bit codepage, then you're not dealing with an ASCII
table, you're dealing with a ISO-8859-1 table, or a MacRoman table, or a
Windows 1252 table, or any of thousands of possible 8-bit encodings.
Without specifying which encoding you're talking about your claim is
simply uninterpretable.

Plus both windows and Macs have been using unicode for some time
now so ASCII isn't really relevant.

You clearly don't know what unicode is actually doing then...



Well, you certainly don't have the foggiest.


Sure I do. Perhaps you've never heard the term "Wide body ASCII" to
describe Unicode?


That term was used in a draft proposal of Unicode88. Unicode88 was a
predecessor of Unicode. I've never heard anyone use the term to refer to
actual Unicode.

It's an encoding format and there's more than one
of them. Several ASCII characters are used to represent a single
value in Unicode.


Unicode doesn't use several ASCII characters to represent a single UCS
character. It uses several *octets* (between 1 and 4) to represent a
single UCS character. What those octets represent depends on whether you
are using UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32, but in none of those systems can
those octets be meaningfully described as "ASCII characters" except in
the specific instance where UTF-8 is being used to represent characters
that are actually *in* ASCII. In that case *one* ASCII character
represents one UCS character.

Andre

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