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Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?



 
 
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  #16  
Old December 12th 17, 11:34 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.apps
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Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Jolly Roger
wrote:

This whole "issue" seems to be a case of PEBKAC to me.


yep.
Ads
  #17  
Old December 12th 17, 11:34 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.apps
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Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Tim Streater
wrote:

On 2017-12-12, Arthur Wood wrote:
guy named Fudman who is very knowledgeable in bimmer engines so for
him to complain means that it's not obvious to all Macintosh users -
but when I

Being knowledgeable about car engines doesn't magically make him
representative of all Macintosh users. I'm willing to bet most Mac users
know how to rename a file. Anyone who uses all of the above platforms on
a regular basis knows renaming files on macOS is just as simple as it is
on Linux or Windows. Click the file's name and you are in filename
editing mode - simple.


the problem is that he changed the file's extension and hide extensions
is normally on.

the same problem exists on windows but he's too stupid to realize what
the actual problem is and would rather just troll under yet another
nym.


This whole issue is just another bit of fallout from the Windows
nonsense of *requiring* a file extension.


yep.

classic mac os did not use file extensions. it used metadata,
specifically type and creator, which worked *very* well.

there was also a mechanism to automatically add extensions when
transferring files to other systems for compatibility purposes.

unfortunately, the rest of the world was stuck with extensions, so with
os x, apple decided to join the crowd.
  #18  
Old December 12th 17, 11:49 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.apps
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Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Paul
wrote:


This whole issue is just another bit of fallout from the Windows
nonsense of *requiring* a file extension.


The HOSTS file, an OS file provided by Microsoft, has no file extension.


that's an exception. the hosts file is a system file and assumed to be
text.

I think an extension is "recommended" for naive users.


more than just naive users. file associations are based on extensions.
  #19  
Old December 13th 17, 12:20 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
Alan Browne[_2_]
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Posts: 33
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

On 2017-12-12 15:07, Your Name wrote:

You over-complicated the problem by making it a "fake PDF".


He over complicated with his cologne: "Whiff of troll".

  #20  
Old December 13th 17, 02:01 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.apps
Lewis
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Posts: 341
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Tim Streater
writes:
In article , nospam
wrote:

In article , Jolly Roger
wrote:

On 2017-12-12, Arthur Wood wrote:
guy named Fudman who is very knowledgeable in bimmer engines so for
him to complain means that it's not obvious to all Macintosh users -
but when I
Being knowledgeable about car engines doesn't magically make him
representative of all Macintosh users. I'm willing to bet most Mac users
know how to rename a file. Anyone who uses all of the above platforms on
a regular basis knows renaming files on macOS is just as simple as it is
on Linux or Windows. Click the file's name and you are in filename
editing mode - simple.

the problem is that he changed the file's extension and hide extensions
is normally on.
the same problem exists on windows but he's too stupid to realize what
the actual problem is and would rather just troll under yet another
nym.


This whole issue is just another bit of fallout from the Windows
nonsense of *requiring* a file extension.

What nonsense might that be? Windows (and DOS) don't require an
extension; OK, they normally _use_ one (and I definitely agree with all
who think hiding them's a bad idea and certainly shouldn't be the
_default_), but there's no _requirement_.


Of course it is a requirement. Quick, go change a .exe to have no
extension and see what happens when you try to run it, Or change any
file with an extension and then try to use it as intended.

The most obvious example being, I think, the hosts file.


The only example. Or it not only, the one in a million example.

--
Slab: Jus' say 'AarrghaarrghpleeassennononoUGH'. --Feet of Clay
  #21  
Old December 13th 17, 09:39 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.apps
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 1,777
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message , Lewis
writes:
In message J. P. Gilliver (John)
wrote:
In message , Tim Streater
writes:

[]
This whole issue is just another bit of fallout from the Windows
nonsense of *requiring* a file extension.

What nonsense might that be? Windows (and DOS) don't require an
extension; OK, they normally _use_ one (and I definitely agree with all
who think hiding them's a bad idea and certainly shouldn't be the
_default_), but there's no _requirement_.


Of course it is a requirement. Quick, go change a .exe to have no
extension and see what happens when you try to run it, Or change any
file with an extension and then try to use it as intended.


I'm not sure how to run a .exe without an extension, but that doesn't
stop me having the file. Certainly, I can have say a Word file without
..doc and open it in Word, or a text file without .txt and open it in
Notepad. If by "as intended" you mean "by double-clicking on it", that's
what extensions are _for_; but they're certainly not a _requirement_.

Your comment that they are required would only make sense if, in some
other OS you are familiar with, you can have filenames without
extensions that still open in the appropriate application by being
double-clicked on (or equivalent operation in that OS).

The most obvious example being, I think, the hosts file.


The only example. Or it not only, the one in a million example.

It's the only one I could think of where _Microsoft_ do something with a
file without an extension on its name. That doesn't mean anyone else
among us can't have such, if they want to.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

pu gnikcab yb naem uoy tahw siht sI
  #22  
Old December 13th 17, 04:17 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
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Posts: 1,054
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

On 12/12/2017 03:55 PM, Tim Streater wrote:

[snip]

This whole issue is just another bit of fallout from the Windows
nonsense of *requiring* a file extension.


You can create a file that looks like it has no extension (actually the
extension is an empty string) and work with it, although some programs
may add an extension.

What Windows won't accept is a filename that is ONLY extension (such as
".htaccess" (it complains about there being no filename).

I just checked this on Windows 7, but it appears to be correct fir other
versions as well.

--
12 days until the winter celebration (Monday December 25, 2017 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Whenever religion is involved, terrorists kill more people." [Dr. Bruce
Hoffman, director of the Center for the Study of Terrorism and Political
Violence at St. Andrews University, Scotland]
  #23  
Old December 13th 17, 05:58 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.apps
nospam
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Posts: 1,691
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , J. P. Gilliver (John)
wrote:

This whole issue is just another bit of fallout from the Windows
nonsense of *requiring* a file extension.

What nonsense might that be? Windows (and DOS) don't require an
extension; OK, they normally _use_ one (and I definitely agree with all
who think hiding them's a bad idea and certainly shouldn't be the
_default_), but there's no _requirement_.


Of course it is a requirement. Quick, go change a .exe to have no
extension and see what happens when you try to run it, Or change any
file with an extension and then try to use it as intended.


I'm not sure how to run a .exe without an extension, but that doesn't
stop me having the file. Certainly, I can have say a Word file without
.doc and open it in Word, or a text file without .txt and open it in
Notepad. If by "as intended" you mean "by double-clicking on it", that's
what extensions are _for_; but they're certainly not a _requirement_.

Your comment that they are required would only make sense if, in some
other OS you are familiar with, you can have filenames without
extensions that still open in the appropriate application by being
double-clicked on (or equivalent operation in that OS).


classic mac os did exactly that.
  #24  
Old December 13th 17, 10:22 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.apps
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Posts: 1,691
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Tim Streater
wrote:


Your comment that they are required would only make sense if, in some
other OS you are familiar with, you can have filenames without
extensions that still open in the appropriate application by being
double-clicked on (or equivalent operation in that OS).


classic mac os did exactly that.


And that is still the case, AFAICT. I just removed .tiff from a file
and double-clicked it. Still opened in Preview.


mac os x tries to do that but it's not 100%.

classic mac os was designed *not* to use extensions.

The type of a file and which app you'd like it to open with are items
of file metadata and have no business being part of the filename.


yep.

unfortunately, that ship has sailed and we're stuck with extensions.
  #25  
Old December 14th 17, 12:37 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
Your Name
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Posts: 86
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

On 2017-12-13 22:13:44 +0000, Tim Streater said:
In article , nospam
wrote:
In article , J. P. Gilliver (John)
wrote:

This whole issue is just another bit of fallout from the Windows
nonsense of *requiring* a file extension.

What nonsense might that be? Windows (and DOS) don't require an
extension; OK, they normally _use_ one (and I definitely agree with all
who think hiding them's a bad idea and certainly shouldn't be the
_default_), but there's no _requirement_.

Of course it is a requirement. Quick, go change a .exe to have no
extension and see what happens when you try to run it, Or change any
file with an extension and then try to use it as intended.

I'm not sure how to run a .exe without an extension, but that doesn't
stop me having the file. Certainly, I can have say a Word file without
.doc and open it in Word, or a text file without .txt and open it in
Notepad. If by "as intended" you mean "by double-clicking on it",
that's what extensions are _for_; but they're certainly not a
_requirement_.

Your comment that they are required would only make sense if, in some
other OS you are familiar with, you can have filenames without
extensions that still open in the appropriate application by being
double-clicked on (or equivalent operation in that OS).


classic mac os did exactly that.


Yes and no.

Classic Mac OS doesn't need filename extensions as such, but does have
a similar technique stored within the file's Finder data (the File Type
and Creator codes). These just aren't visible to the general user
without using something like ResEdit, Resourcer, FileBuddy, etc.



And that is still the case, AFAICT. I just removed .tiff from a file
and double-clicked it. Still opened in Preview.


That's because *that* file had already been set as a TIFF and
associated with Preview. The preference has already been stored in the
Finder's data files and the OS doesn't bother to change that ... unless
you change the filename extension to a different one (try changing the
filename extension from .tiff to .docx, for example, and see what
happens when you double-click it).

Try saving a TIFF file without the extension and then double-clicking
it. Finder will ask you what to open it with, and then associate that
choice with that file.





The type of a file and which app you'd like it to open with are items
of file metadata and have no business being part of the filename.


It is useful and sensible to have the file type as part of the
filename. Otherwise you'd get a pile of files which neither you nor the
OS having any idea whether they are images, sounds, text, etc. You
would then have to try to open the file in every app you own until you
found one that could open it ... you can't rely on the OS to do that
since a JPEG image file can actually be opened in a text editor as the
file's data, even if it's rarely useful to do so.



  #26  
Old December 14th 17, 03:55 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
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Posts: 1,691
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Your Name
wrote:

Your comment that they are required would only make sense if, in some
other OS you are familiar with, you can have filenames without
extensions that still open in the appropriate application by being
double-clicked on (or equivalent operation in that OS).

classic mac os did exactly that.


Yes and no.


actually, just yes.

Classic Mac OS doesn't need filename extensions as such, but does have
a similar technique stored within the file's Finder data (the File Type
and Creator codes). These just aren't visible to the general user
without using something like ResEdit, Resourcer, FileBuddy, etc.


in other words, no extensions.



The type of a file and which app you'd like it to open with are items
of file metadata and have no business being part of the filename.


It is useful and sensible to have the file type as part of the
filename.


no it's not.

Otherwise you'd get a pile of files which neither you nor the
OS having any idea whether they are images, sounds, text, etc. You
would then have to try to open the file in every app you own until you
found one that could open it ...


nonsense. it uses the type/creator to decide which app to launch when
double-clicked.

you can't rely on the OS to do that
since a JPEG image file can actually be opened in a text editor as the
file's data, even if it's rarely useful to do so.


drag the file to whatever app you want to use, and if it can handle it,
it will open it. bbedit, for example, will open a jpeg (or anything
else for that matter) as text.

alternately, open the file from within the desired app.
  #27  
Old December 14th 17, 05:24 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Your Name
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Posts: 86
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

On 2017-12-14 03:16:11 +0000, Wolf K said:

On 2017-12-13 19:37, Your Name wrote:
On 2017-12-13 22:13:44 +0000, Tim Streater said:
In article , nospam
wrote:

[...]
The type of a file and which app you'd like it to open with are items
of file metadata and have no business being part of the filename.


It is useful and sensible to have the file type as part of the
filename. Otherwise you'd get a pile of files which neither you nor the
OS having any idea whether they are images, sounds, text, etc. You
would then have to try to open the file in every app you own until you
found one that could open it


Many files have such type-identifiers included. E.g., a JPG file begins
with JFIF, a WordPerfect file includes WPC in the first line, an MS
.doc includes "Microsoft Word Document" in plain text in the header,
and so on. Some image viewers will even tell you that the extension
doesn't match the file type, if that happens to be the case.


But then you actually have to open the file to see that. The filename
extension, or Classic Mac OS's type and creator codes, don't need the
file to be opened to find out what it is ... or at least supposedly is
since those can be easily fooled.



... you can't rely on the OS to do that since a JPEG image file can
actually be opened in a text editor as the file's data, even if it's
rarely useful to do so.


That's what Open With is for.


Open With is near useless if you don't know what the file actually is.
You'd have to Open With with every app you have until you found one
that could open it properly.


  #28  
Old December 14th 17, 06:31 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 6,607
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Your Name wrote:
On 2017-12-14 03:16:11 +0000, Wolf K said:


That's what Open With is for.


Open With is near useless if you don't know what the file actually is.
You'd have to Open With with every app you have until you found one that
could open it properly.


If you don't have any tools, and are on a desert island,
you use "Open With" "Wordpad" to figure out what something
is. It's not that hard.

*******

In Windows 10, you'd do:

bash
cd /mnt/c/users/freddy/Downloads
file my_unknown_file_download

and it would tell you.

Not everyone installs the optional bash (downloads
from the Store, on command).

*******

On Windows 7, you could get a copy of this.
As you wouldn't have the Bash version to use.

http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/file.htm

Paul
  #29  
Old December 14th 17, 07:24 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.apps
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 1,777
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message , Tim Streater
writes:
[]
The type of a file and which app you'd like it to open with are items
of file metadata and have no business being part of the filename.

1. I think it does no _harm_ to have it as part of the filename, though.
2. The use of metadata requires that it be _in the file_, not in
something the OS stores _alongside_ the file - since that can get
separated from it, or corrupted separately. And since there are
filetypes for which metadata _isn't_ in the file (plain text being the
obvious, but I think some forms of raw image, some hex dumps and the
like ...), that ship has sailed. It's rather like those photo-album
softwares that use their own tags, which get confused if someone moves
one of the image files in explorer without telling the photo-album
software.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

They'd never heard of me; they didn't like me; they didn't like my speech;
they tutted and clucked and looked at their watches and eventually I sat down
to a thunderous lack of applause. - Barry Norman (on preceding Douglas Bader),
in RT 6-12 July 2013
  #30  
Old December 14th 17, 08:56 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 1,777
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file? (Now discussion of metadata)

In message , Tim Streater
writes:
In article , Wolf K
wrote:

On 2017-12-13 19:37, Your Name wrote:
On 2017-12-13 22:13:44 +0000, Tim Streater said:
In article , nospam
wrote:

[...]
The type of a file and which app you'd like it to open with are items
of file metadata and have no business being part of the filename.
It is useful and sensible to have the file type as part of the
filename. Otherwise you'd get a pile of files which neither you nor
the OS having any idea whether they are images, sounds, text, etc.
You would then have to try to open the file in every app you own
until you found one that could open it


Many files have such type-identifiers included. E.g., a JPG file
begins with JFIF, a WordPerfect file includes WPC in the first line,
an MS .doc includes "Microsoft Word Document" in plain text in the
header, and so on. Some image viewers will even tell you that the
extension doesn't match the file type, if that happens to be the case.


Then you've put the metadata inside the file, which is even worse. It
should be part of the file system.

On the contrary: I think metadata _should_ be inside the file. That way
it can't be separated, even if the file is moved (or even emailed).
Relying on it being part of the file system only works while you're
inside the same OS, unless you believe in forcing all OSs to have the
same standards for handling metadata.

MP3 and JPG files don't seem to come to any harm by having metadata
inside them.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

All's well that ends.
 




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