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Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?



 
 
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  #46  
Old December 14th 17, 05:22 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
pyotr filipivich
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Posts: 295
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Wolf K on Thu, 14 Dec 2017 09:30:24 -0500 typed
in alt.windows7.general the following:

Well done.

Bottom line: it's way past time for standards. There's no reason for
different OSs to handle filetype/tagging/etc differently.


"Standards are wonderful things to have.

Which is why we have so many of them."

That was an old truism since before I went for the computer
science degree.
--
pyotr filipivich
The question was asked: "Is Hindsight overrated?"
In retrospect, it appears to be.
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  #47  
Old December 14th 17, 05:23 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 1,511
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message , Wolf K
writes:
On 2017-12-14 00:24, Your Name wrote:
On 2017-12-14 03:16:11 +0000, Wolf K said:

On 2017-12-13 19:37, Your Name wrote:

[...]
* ... you can't rely on the OS to do that since a JPEG image file can
actually be opened in a text editor as the file's data, even if
it's rarely useful to do so.

That's what Open With is for.

Open With is near useless if you don't know what the file actually
is. You'd have to Open With with every app you have until you found
one that could open it properly.


If we're talking about user convenience, I agree, showing a file's type
as part of the filename is very useful. (But IMO a three-letter
extension is too limited). There are many other useful conventions, eg,
in icon design. These are converging on a common standard.


How about this thought, to add fuel to the fire (stir, stir ...): the
filename extension _is_ metadata. Not as intimately bound as metadata
_within_ the file (because it _can_ be renamed), but arguably more
closely bound than metadata in an attached spoon*. [As another has
pointed out, they're not limited to three characters - though I would
say three _is_ enough to allow an awful lot of filetypes!]

If we're talking about choosing a program to open a file, extenions
aren't needed. It would be easy to ensure that Open With offers only
programs that can open a given file without reference to an extension.
Just standardise metadata (eg, as a series of slots, some which must be
filled, others for dev or user options). Easy peasy.


"Just" standardise metadata. Good luck with that. (Plus - even if you
did succeed - with converting all the already-existing files.)

Have a good day,

* Oh, all right, fork.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bother," said Pooh, as Windows crashed into piglet.
  #48  
Old December 14th 17, 05:24 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Lewis
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Posts: 338
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message Paul wrote:
Wolf K wrote:
On 2017-12-14 00:24, Your Name wrote:
On 2017-12-14 03:16:11 +0000, Wolf K said:

On 2017-12-13 19:37, Your Name wrote:

[...]
... you can't rely on the OS to do that since a JPEG image file can
actually be opened in a text editor as the file's data, even if it's
rarely useful to do so.

That's what Open With is for.

Open With is near useless if you don't know what the file actually is.
You'd have to Open With with every app you have until you found one
that could open it properly.


If we're talking about user convenience, I agree, showing a file's type
as part of the filename is very useful. (But IMO a three-letter
extension is too limited). There are many other useful conventions, eg,
in icon design. These are converging on a common standard.

If we're talking about choosing a program to open a file, extenions
aren't needed. It would be easy to ensure that Open With offers only
programs that can open a given file without reference to an extension.
Just standardise metadata (eg, as a series of slots, some which must be
filled, others for dev or user options). Easy peasy.

Have a good day,


Windows is not limited to 8.3.


Might not be in Windows 10 (though I think it is), but certainly up
through 8 every file had to conform to 8.3 at some level. This is why
you would occasionally see a filename like LONGFI~1.DOC instead of
"Longfilename.docx"

In Windows 7, the introduction of libraries saw
the addition (by Microsoft) of .library-ms.


Which had the TLE of .lms as I recall.

--
"Oh damn", said Maladict.
  #49  
Old December 14th 17, 05:25 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 1,511
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message , Wolf K
writes:
On 2017-12-14 08:22, Mayayana wrote:
"Tim wrote

| The type of a file and which app you'd like it to open with are
| items
| of file metadata and have no business being part of the filename.

| Many files have such type-identifiers included. E.g., a JPG file
| begins
| with JFIF, a WordPerfect file includes WPC in the first line, an MS .doc

| Then you've put the metadata inside the file, which is even worse.
|
| should be part of the file system.
This is the problem with mixing Mac and Windows
discussions. As I understand it, Mac stores file data
separately as a "resource fork". Mac users are not
expected to understand anything about files. That's
not the same as metadata.

[snip reminders about the mess we're dealing with]

Well done.

Bottom line: it's way past time for standards. There's no reason for
different OSs to handle filetype/tagging/etc differently.

But: they do. We have to live with it: to pick one, you'd have to
antagonise all the others. And (at least if it's Windows - I can't speak
for the others) that "one" wouldn't _remain_ consistent anyway.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bother," said Pooh, as Windows crashed into piglet.
  #50  
Old December 14th 17, 05:35 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
nospam
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Posts: 1,285
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| Bottom line: it's way past time for standards. There's no reason for
| different OSs to handle filetype/tagging/etc differently.
|

I wonder if it's too late for that. Or maybe too early.
Developments go at such a fast pace, and most of it
is now commercial.


it's much too late for that. the world is stuck with extensions.

Example: I noticed that Bitcoin programming uses a
.DAT extension. That's a common extension on
Windows for undefined data files. Typically they're
custom format, used privately by software. They
might contain anything. The Bitcoin people apparently
didn't know or didn't care.


bitcoin wallets are data, so .dat is appropriate.

JPG is a semi-standard only because it compresses
well and it's royaslty-free. But it's a terrible image
format. The compression degrades the image!


all lossy compression formats do.

however, the highest quality jpeg is for all intents, indistinguishable
from the original. do a difference in photoshop and it's *very* minor.

Yet JPG
is used to store images in cameras because all
computers will recognize it. Meanwhile the JPG header
is a mess. It's like a toilet stall in a public bathroom
where everyone and his brother have added their
2 cents.


nonsense.

Any "standards" we have in tech are often partly
created by small, well-intentioned groups of insiders
who want to improve how things work (often in an
atmosphere of seat-of-the-pants urgency). But those
groups have their own values and their own priorities.


no.

So the obvious question becomes: Who is going to
be in charge to establish standards and decide on
priorities? And what happens to commercial entities that
stand to lose? For instance, camera companies that
have to remake their hardware/software in order to
store some universal format to replace JPG, that
everyone agrees on... at least this year. There's rarely
standardization in commerical products unless it
favors the sellers. It usually doesn't.


that's already happening.

heif is the new kid on the block.
  #51  
Old December 14th 17, 05:35 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,285
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| a given file might have only a data fork, only a resource fork or both,
| depending on the purpose of the file.
|
| microsoft copied the idea, adding multiple forks to ntfs, known as
| alternate data streams.
|

Actually MS came up with the ill-fated, bad idea of
ADS to help accomodate MS Office to Macs.


nope. microsoft copied the mac resource fork concept, extending it to
an arbitrary number of forks, versus just two for classic mac os.

Later they
did some dumb things like using them to store metadata.
But whaddayaknow.... it turned out the metadata was
lost if the file was moved from an NTFS file system.


only if it was moved improperly. there are ways to preserve that data.

(Actually that's a handy way to clean ADS. Move them
to a FAT32 partition.)


only if you don't mind data loss.

| You don't need to "open" a file to see what type it is, in
| the sense that you don't have to run it.
|
| but you do have to open the file and read the info in the header,
| making it a costly operation just to find out what type of file it is.
|

There's nothing "costly" about opening a file in
a hex editor. HxD uses about 8 MB of RAM. Pale
Moon, by contrast, is costing me 100+- MB just
to sit there.


opening a file is a more costly operation than simply checking its
entry in the file system and obtaining the relevant data.

put simply: a one-step process versus two-step process.

| The hex editor
| HxD is free and very good. You can put an Open With HxD
| on your right-click menu and look at the file bytes to
| see what it is.
|
| you're going to do that for every single file?

I do it when I need to. Not a big deal. We're
talking about scenarios where the file type is
unknown. I don't find that happens very often.

If you don't know what to do with "every
single file" then even MacOS handholding
won't help.


completely missing the point and resorting to your usual ignorant
derogatory remarks.
  #52  
Old December 14th 17, 05:35 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
nospam
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Posts: 1,285
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| And, since you like to quibble: is the MIME header part of a post or
| not? I would quibble that it is, since it has to be included with the
| post so that the client can display the contents properly.
|

You should know that nospam is a compulsive
arguer who regularly carries on bickering matches
that go into hundreds of posts. If you answer,
he *will* argue. He's also very adept at the
appearance of knowledge, using generalities and
undefined declarations ("not so", "nonsense", etc)
to appear to be discussing a topic expertly.


ad hominem.
  #53  
Old December 14th 17, 05:35 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
nospam
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Posts: 1,285
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Wolf K
wrote:

[...] The internet works because the necessary data for routing the
data packets are inside the data packet, not external. That principle
should apply to all forms of data. Including programs, but that's a
another issue. mime headers say otherwise.
I don't see the relevance of your remark.


you mangled the quoting and you don't understand the issues.

AIUI, each data packet includes an ID to ensure that the intended
recipient computer can snag it from the data stream, and assemble the
packets in correct order, including the MIME header at the start of the
data. If you want to quibble about whether the ID data is inside the
packet or not, go ahead, quibble. Anything to keep you happy.


the mime headers are *not* part of the actual data. they *describe* the
data that is sent.

if that description is incorrect or non-existent, problems occur.

for example, a misconfigured web server often serves a binary file as
the default text, causing it to display garbled characters in the
browser window rather than initiate a file download. forcing a download
(option/alt click the link) usually results in a valid file.

sometimes the mime headers are wrong. i know of one web site that has
several pdf files for download, which when downloaded end up as .exe.
renaming them to pdf fixes the problem locally, but the real problem is
the mime type on the server is set wrong. the actual data is
unaffected.
  #54  
Old December 14th 17, 05:35 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,285
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Wolf K
wrote:

| The type of a file and which app you'd like it to open with are
| items
| of file metadata and have no business being part of the filename.

| Many files have such type-identifiers included. E.g., a JPG file begins
| with JFIF, a WordPerfect file includes WPC in the first line, an MS
| .doc

| Then you've put the metadata inside the file, which is even worse. It
| should be part of the file system.

This is the problem with mixing Mac and Windows
discussions. As I understand it, Mac stores file data
separately as a "resource fork".

No, you have it back to front. File data went in the data fork,
metadata went in the resource fork.


no it didn't.

metadata was kept in the file system.

the resource fork (which was optional, as was the data fork) held
various resources. it was basically a miniature database.

a zero-length file would have an empty data *and* resource fork. rare,
but possible.

Unfortunately Apple has abandoned
this idea and settled for the lowest-common-denominator approach, and
w're all the worse off for it.


yep.


Educate me.


pay me and perhaps i will.

or, educate yourself. the information in published and has been for
several decades.

What's the advantage of the "forks"?


many, some of which have been mentioned in this very thread.

As described, it looks
like metadata with a fancy name, apparently conceived as attached to or
pointed to by the file. Presumably it's stored separately from the file.


read it again, because that's wrong.
  #55  
Old December 14th 17, 05:42 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
Lewis
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Posts: 338
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message Mayayana wrote:
"Wolf K" wrote


| So the obvious question becomes: Who is going to
| be in charge to establish standards and decide on
| priorities?
|
| ISO.


I didn't know about that organization. Good idea.


| And what happens to commercial entities that
| stand to lose? For instance, camera companies that
| have to remake their hardware/software in order to
| store some universal format to replace JPG, that
| everyone agrees on... at least this year. There's rarely
| standardization in commercial products unless it
| favors the sellers. It usually doesn't.
|
| Image format is software, not hardware.


Yes. That's just an example. The hardware/software
will need to work together, no?


| All cameras capture the image in
| some proprietary RAW format. Amateur cameras immediately process the RAW
| image, ending with compression to JPG. Our oldest camera actually
| displays "Busy" on the screen while it does this. Some parameters, such
| as white balance, can be set by the user.
|
| The alternative would have to be much larger memory cards, frequent
| exchange for fresh ones in the field, and post-processing at home.


Yes, but the standard could be changed to PNG, TIF (just a zipped
bitmap), or some newer, non-lossy, compressed format, such as an
improved non-lossy JPG. It would make sense, but it would require a
lot of work for everyone to adapt, from camera makers to software
makers to photographers. And since many photographers want metadata
in their digital photos, the new standard format would need to
accomodate that.


HEIF is an excellent format with many modern advantages.

No one can force MS to make that public or standardize the structure.


Well, that is certainly not true.

--
No man is free who is not master of himself
  #56  
Old December 14th 17, 06:28 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Lewis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 338
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Wolf K
writes:
On 2017-12-14 00:24, Your Name wrote:
On 2017-12-14 03:16:11 +0000, Wolf K said:

On 2017-12-13 19:37, Your Name wrote:

[...]
* ... you can't rely on the OS to do that since a JPEG image file can
actually be opened in a text editor as the file's data, even if
it's rarely useful to do so.

That's what Open With is for.
Open With is near useless if you don't know what the file actually
is. You'd have to Open With with every app you have until you found
one that could open it properly.


If we're talking about user convenience, I agree, showing a file's type
as part of the filename is very useful. (But IMO a three-letter
extension is too limited). There are many other useful conventions, eg,
in icon design. These are converging on a common standard.


How about this thought, to add fuel to the fire (stir, stir ...): the
filename extension _is_ metadata. Not as intimately bound as metadata
_within_ the file (because it _can_ be renamed), but arguably more
closely bound than metadata in an attached spoon*. [As another has
pointed out, they're not limited to three characters - though I would
say three _is_ enough to allow an awful lot of filetypes!]


On a strict definition that metadata is data BOUT the data, then yes,
file name, size, creation date, path, inode, modifcation date,
permissions, access time, ACLs, etc are all metadata.


--
So here's us, on the raggedy edge. Don't push me. And I won't push you.
  #57  
Old December 14th 17, 07:05 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,511
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message , Tim Streater
writes:
[]
When attachments are emailed, some of the metadata goes with it: at
least filename, creation and modification dates. This is all done using
the content-disposition: header (see RFC 2183).

When I send or receive attachments, I'm pretty sure no date information
is included.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You can be tough without being rude - Nick Clegg, 2014 July
  #58  
Old December 14th 17, 07:06 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.apps
Siri Cruise
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Posts: 4
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article ,
Arthur Wood wrote:

The Windows users had no problem changing the name but all the Macintosh
users complained they can't change the name and I can't tell them HOW to
change the name. It's really important that I get these Macintosh users to
hear the file!


Use Get Info from Finder. In the Name and Extension panel, type in the name.
Unclick Hide extension if shows up.


Alternative 1: Open Terminal and use the mv command.

Alternative 2: Unmount the filesystem, and mount the volume as a block special
device. Seek the sector with the directory, read it, alter it, write out. Close
the file and remount the filesystem.

--
:- Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
I'm saving up to buy the Donald a blue stone This post / \
from Metebelis 3. All praise the Great Don! insults Islam. Mohammed
  #59  
Old December 14th 17, 07:10 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.system
Mayayana
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Posts: 4,202
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

"Lewis" wrote

| HEIF is an excellent format with many modern advantages.
|

I'm guessing you're saying that because you use Apple
and Apple told you so, because Apple is switching to
it in iPhones.

First, it's a container format, not an image format.
Something like docx or like various compound
storage formats.

Second, the compression used seems to be very good, but
is it totally non-lossy? That's not clear from what I've read.

Third, and this is a biggie, the compression is patented:
https://www.hevcadvance.com/licensin...ng-information

Apple is using a system that allows for flexibility like storing
different copies of the same image in one container. And
presumably they're paying the patent fees. But that's not
needed for a basic file format. All that's needed is to develop
the best possible compression for bitmaps and then make
that format widely supported. Add a clear metadata storage
system and it does everything that anyone could want, at
least within the range of 24-bit color raster images.
But it needs to be a non-patented compression. Otherwise
it can't be used by most of the people who would want to
use it, like webmasters.

| No one can force MS to make that public or standardize the structure.
|
| Well, that is certainly not true.
|

No? A company doesn't have a right to
keep proprietary technologies secret?
Perhaps you'd like to tell us the Coke recipe.


  #60  
Old December 14th 17, 07:37 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Lewis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 338
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Tim Streater
writes:
[]
When attachments are emailed, some of the metadata goes with it: at
least filename, creation and modification dates. This is all done using
the content-disposition: header (see RFC 2183).

When I send or receive attachments, I'm pretty sure no date information
is included.


Depends entirely on how you send them.

--
Knowledge equals power... --... Power equals energy... People were
stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place
because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made
it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the
simple fact that it was a library. Energy equals matter... --... Matter
equals mass. And mass distorts space. It distorts it into polyfractal
L-Space. --Guards! Guards!
 




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