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  #31  
Old December 31st 17, 02:23 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Michael Logies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default cloud OS?

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 11:13:08 +0000, mechanic
wrote:

Pity Android phones are so hard to network (compared to
Apple iPhones);


I can`t agree.

Windows Homegroup networking is so much more of a
problem


Avoid homegroup networking and then networking with androids to
Windows PCs becomes easy:
https://www.howtogeek.com/191378/how...ad-and-iphone/

Regards

M.
Ads
  #32  
Old December 31st 17, 03:43 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,952
Default cloud OS?

"Michael Logies" wrote

| No, a Chromebit. That is a full PC in the size of an USB-stick, with a
| big monitor and a big keyboard and mouse attached for using web apps
| (from Google and others).
|

Ah. I didn't know about those. At the CNEt review
page it says 1.8 GHz, 2 GB RAM, 16 GB storage. Uses
Google apps and requires an HDMI monitor plus
bluetooth keyboard and mouse. That's easy and
economical? It's not even mobile. It's a low-end,
compressed desktop that can only run a few web
apps.

So what's the appeal? Saving some money? I suspect
that's rarely a factor. $5 coffee, take-out food, game
devices, computer phones and HD TVs all attest that
the average first world person is almost oblivious to
costs. Those are all expensive, non-critical items.
Computing, on the other hand, is a critical need
for most people.

| Web apps are (often) conceptionally superior to local programs: No
| need for upgrading by the end user, the web app is upgraded centrally
| instead. No need for massive, local CPU power, because the heavy
| lifting is done centrally. No need for big local storage, because data
| is stored centrally. The result is a cheaper, safer, easier use of
| computer power. Economics of scale are at work here and that`s why
| this will be the dominant way of computing in the future.
|
Maybe this appeals because you can limit what your
daughter gets mixed up in? I'm guessing there are no
S&M chat groups in GoogleVille.

Conceptually superior? That's misleading. Or to put it
bluntly, you've been duped. The web app companies
want you to think web apps are a natural progression
because they want you in a scenario where everything
you do costs a feee. Money or ads and/or personal data,
but some kind of fee.
Web app software is far more limited while also requiring
far more computer power. Most software rarely needs
upgrading. Most web apps do *not* run remotely. Office
365 and Adobe CS? They're installed locally. The remote
part is just the calling home and storage, to justify charging
you every month.
And you're talking about a fairly beefy PC on a stick with
the Chromebit. Photoshop or MS Office would run fine on
Win98 with 700 MHz and 64 MB RAM. You've got several
times more capacity with Chromebit.

This is my whole point: The logic simply doesn't add
up. If you want to limit your daughter's activities or
save money on kids school supplies, that might make
sense. Setting up a Chromebit rig to use as a real
computer does not make sense in terms of cost,
practicality, functionality, or even convenience.

| The existence of tablets has nothing
| to do with the life of desktops, just as the existence of
| microwave ovens doesn't make stoves obsolete.
|
| A better analogy would be the fate of open fires after the introducing
| of central heating.
|
Suit yourself. This is starting to sound like religion
to me. Not because you like web services but because
you're so adamant that they must replace everything else,
despite the fact that millions of people, including you,
use a desktop.

| I don't mean that. I mean that Google products are spyware.
|
| Then choose another web app provider. Chrome OS/Cloudread has an
| anonymous (guest) mode.
|

You're missing the point. By pretending to do your
work on their website and storing your data on their
cloud, they define it as a service. That justifies the
rent. That also provides the excuse for them to
claim co-ownership of your data. That's what gmail
does. The whole system revolves around targetted ads.
Or you pay very steep prices. You didn't just
stumble upon a magical kingdom of free stuff. You
pay one way or the other. It's possible that Microsoft
will be slightly less slimy with their web services, but
that's not saying much. However you look at it,
you're letting the landlord co-own your stuff and
spy on you. And the real kicker is that you don't
actually have to do that. (Most people have real,
free email through their ISP. Theyt just can't be
bothered to set it up.)

In a lawsuit awhile back, non-gmail customers
sued Google for reading their email without permission.
Google's defense: Those people had no business
thinking they might have privacy because Google
has been spying on everyone for years and everyone
knows that. In other words, "You can't prosecute
us for stealing their stuff because everyone knows
we steal everyone's stuff!"

Adobe charges something like $10 US/month and
stores work online. Anyone who doesn't know enough
to make local copies will lose all their work if they end
the rental. In other words, with web apps you still
don't get the convenience of not needing to understand
the device. You still use hardware that can cause problems.
You still need to learn how to use the software. And
you still need to understand the pros and cons of
your brave new Rental-Rama. If you're not careful you
might lose all your data.

| In the future "the system" will be mainly in the cloud, connected to
| dumber terminals. You don`t learn to operate a power station to use
| your electricity at home, do you?
|
You seem to be watching too much TV. How is
it that you know the future with such certainty?
Your words sound like a TV commercial.

The "system" is local.
Do you really think that every time you type a
letter in Google apps it's calling Google for a webpage
update? And if you press backspace 30 times it
makes a roundtrip to Google for a new webpage
30 times in 2 seconds? Not likely. If it does then it
will be a very limited app. What you've got is either
software that's really running locally, or a bloated
javascript program running in the browser and
calling home frequently.

As noted above, Office 365 and Adobe CS do
not run on the cloud. They only pretend to be in the
cloud. And a web app is not lean. Wrapping all that
functionality in sandboxing and a browser is
extremely inefficient. That's partly why it's taken
so long to make the web app scam work. Microsoft
invented .Net for web apps. In 2001. They tried
to make a sandboxed version of Windows, running
on top of .Net, in 2005. By their description, it
failed because there was not yet hardware powerful
enough to handle the extreme bloat.

Why didn't it work? Because .Net is a bloated,
superfluous layer used to simplify programming
tasks and add sandboxing. It's not the future
any more than javascript is the future. It may be
one future tool, but some kind of software has
to work directly with the processor and RAM. That's
what the OS makes possible. A browser running
javascript and/or Silverlight is several layers
removed from the "bare metal" functionality of
the CPU and RAM. Each of those layers is costly.
The problem in 2001, and 2005, was that neither
the hardware nor the Internet connection speed
was adequate to run the extremely inefficent,
bloated layers that are necessary for web apps
to run convincingly. Also, the hardware and the
public were not yet ready for reducing computers
to crippled kiosks. (Why run software online, after
all, if it runs better and cheaper locally? The solution?
Restrict computers in the name of security and
convenience.)

Your Chromebit is clearly dumb, but it's not low-power.
It's Linux with extensive sandboxing and crippling
technology to create a kiosk system that locks
you into a browser. My very elderly father has something
like that. It's called a WOW: Linux built into a monitor,
set up as a web browsing kiosk system. He didn't buy
it because it's the future. He bought it because he
could no longer focus sufficiently to use a fully
functional computer.

In other words, you've been had. Google's not on
the cutting edge of the future, unless these companies
somehow manage to deprive us, by hook in your case
and by crook in mine, of non-crippled computers.


| As for Windows ads, what about ads for Candy Crush
| or MS Office in Metro buttons?
|
| I deinstalled these. Havn`t seen other ads on my PCs with Windows 10.
|

So you do see ads. Removing the ads is not the
same as there being no ads. And removing them
required some expertise. I don't have any Candy
Crush crap on my computer. If I did I'd know that
some malware had snuck on.


  #33  
Old December 31st 17, 03:48 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Roger Blake[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 350
Default cloud OS?

On 2017-12-30, mechanic wrote:
What's wrong with that? We are already used to a rental system on
our cars (in the UK called Personal Contract Purchase or PCP). It's
the way things are going.


Perhaps for you that's the way things are going. I prefer to own things
rather than rent and not pay perpetual fees for their use, whenever possible.
(I have not had a car payment in well over 30 years.)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  #34  
Old December 31st 17, 05:00 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Michael Logies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default cloud OS?

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 09:43:09 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

"Michael Logies" wrote

| No, a Chromebit. That is a full PC in the size of an USB-stick, with a
| big monitor and a big keyboard and mouse attached for using web apps
| (from Google and others).
|

Ah. I didn't know about those. At the CNEt review
page it says 1.8 GHz, 2 GB RAM, 16 GB storage. Uses
Google apps and requires an HDMI monitor plus
bluetooth keyboard and mouse. That's easy and
economical?


It has one USB-outlet, too, which is connected to a Dell U2412M
(1920*1200 pixel). The Dell with its internal USB hub connects to a
usual USB-keyboard, a USB-mouse, a USB-soundstick, a USB-camera, if
needed.
A more complete hardware solution is offered by a chromebox or a
chromebook.

It's not even mobile. It's a low-end,
compressed desktop that can only run a few web
apps.


Yes, with minimized TCO, especially maintenance, which is most
important for me.
And Google Apps are much easier and faster to learn than Windows with
classic Desktop apps.
As I wrote, 60% of US-schools are already sold to Chrome OS, proving
that it makes a lot of sense for class rooms:
https://www.neowin.net/news/chrome-o...t-of-the-world
Chrome OS tops in U.S. schools; Windows leads rest of the world
By John Keefer @@keefinator Dec 6, 2017 HOT!

So what's the appeal?


Mac, Windows, Linux had 10-100 more security flaws than Chrome OS in
the last several years. Chrome OS does not need a virus scanner.

Devices with Chrome OS are very well integrated with Android. Pictures
and films made with her smartphone camera will go automatically into
her Google account (free & unlimited uploads with the Google Fotos
app), can be used there with any web brower on any PC.
Her smartphone was cluttered by snapchats. We just copied the files to
Google Fotos on her smartphone, emptied data of snapchat, then deleted
all pictures already backuped to Google, and now her smartphone is
usable, again.

Real time collaboration on documents is free and easy to use with
Google Apps.

Saving some money? I suspect
that's rarely a factor.


For me, it is. Saving is a hobby of mine. ;-)

Maybe this appeals because you can limit what your
daughter gets mixed up in?


Only I have her Google account data (same for Chromebit and her
smartphone), so I can have a look on what she is doing.

I'm guessing there are no
S&M chat groups in GoogleVille.


Chrome OS connects to the whole internet... I restrict it with
automatic blacklisting on the router.

because they want you in a scenario where everything
you do costs a feee. Money or ads and/or personal data,
but some kind of fee.


With Microsoft or Linux it`s worse. I had to pay them with a lot more
of my time to keep them usuable and safe.

This is my whole point: The logic simply doesn't add
up. If you want to limit your daughter's activities or
save money on kids school supplies, that might make
sense. Setting up a Chromebit rig to use as a real
computer does not make sense in terms of cost,
practicality, functionality, or even convenience.


We wil see. Web apps are evolving fast, the desktop PC is stagnating:
https://www.mrc-productivity.com/blo...ends-for-2017/
5 big enterprise web application development trends for 2017
January 4, 2017
(...)

She already had some assignments, which were easy to solve with her
chromebit, much easier than it would have been possible on a Windows
PC.

Not because you like web services but because
you're so adamant that they must replace everything else,


Not everything for everyone, but perhaps for 80-90% of all use cases.

You're missing the point. By pretending to do your
work on their website and storing your data on their
cloud, they define it as a service. That justifies the
rent. That also provides the excuse for them to
claim co-ownership of your data.


The legal situation is a bit different in europe, even for Google:
https://privacy.google.com/intl/en_u...al_active=none

Regards

M.
  #35  
Old December 31st 17, 06:30 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,952
Default cloud OS?

"Michael Logies" wrote

| As I wrote, 60% of US-schools are already sold to Chrome OS, proving
| that it makes a lot of sense for class rooms:
|
https://www.neowin.net/news/chrome-o...t-of-the-world
| Chrome OS tops in U.S. schools; Windows leads rest of the world

That's an interesting issue. Bill Gates and his
insidous foundation have been trying to push
their own agenda in the US, in terms of
education standards. According to your link,
Google is also making inroads. I don't consider
that progress. I consider it a combination of
corruption on the part of govt/companies and
naivety on the part of educators, in thinking
that tech by itself makes kids smarter.

The US is also making progress in selling
out schools to advertisers in order to raise funds.
Things like ball fields painted with "Hersheys"
or "Coca-Cola". I also don't consider that to
be progress.

My partner of many years is a retired
kindergarten teacher who now supervises
student teachers for a university. When she
taught she had to order Macs in order to get
the tables, chairs and shelving she needed.
The money came from Federal funding and
she wasn't allowed to order one without the
other. Gov't stupidity? Apple lobbying? I don't
know the details. I do know the Macs were
never used because none of the early childhood
teachers thought that 5-7 year olds should
spend their time with "edutainment" apps on
computers.

Channel One News with ads is also popular
in US schools. Is that good? I wouldn't say
so. When I was young we were assigned to
bring in current news stories to discuss. With
Channel One the stories are picked by a for-profit
company and interspersed with ads.

As for your link.... Do you know what "research
and consulting firms" like Futuresource do? Their
role is to talk up the industry with fluff press releases
and to give fluff seminars on the current fads at
industry conferences. They're glorified marketers.
How do you suppose you ended up with a link
about US edcation purchases from a British
consulting firm? Because they're the source of
their own planned hoopla:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/...rket/78323158/

(Note who USA Today is quoting. It's a press
release masquerading as news.)

I have a favorite example of that kind of scam.
When XP came out, a company called Asset-Metrix
was everywhere with a "study" showing that Win98
was no longer safe to use and companies should
upgrade to XP. Why was 98 unsafe? Because MS
was ending support. That was the gist of their
study. Rather like the Monty Python brontosaurus
expert. (MS later extended support.)

Asset-Metrix, when they weren't doing brilliant,
in-depth research, was in the business of helping
companies upgrade their computers. They were
later quietly bought by Microsoft. Why did MS
need a Windows PC management company? Could
the company itself have been a "spin-in" racket?
Was there some kind of payoff going on? I don't
know and I'm not accusing anyone. But I do find
it hard to think of another reason for MS to buy
Asset-Metrix. Either way, their so-called study
was nothing more than an ad for their business.
They really didn't even try to hide that. Most people
are so trained to think anything claiming to be
a scientific study must be true that A-M didn't
need to hide what they were doing. They only
needed to present their ad as though it were an
official scientific study.


  #36  
Old December 31st 17, 07:06 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
mechanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 754
Default cloud OS?

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 14:23:11 +0100, Michael Logies wrote:

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 11:13:08 +0000, mechanic
wrote:

Pity Android phones are so hard to network (compared to
Apple iPhones);


I can`t agree.

Windows Homegroup networking is so much more of a problem


Avoid homegroup networking and then networking with androids to
Windows PCs becomes easy:
https://www.howtogeek.com/191378/how...ad-and-iphone/


If only, there are far too many settings which need to be checked
such as needing TCP/IP6 turned on (even if you aren't using it),
setting up file sharing and using the same credentials for all
connected devices before you can be sure windows10 machines will
even talk to each other never mind Android or Samba servers. Then
there are problems if you haven't set fixed IP addresses for each
machine. Forums are full of tales of woe from users just trying to
network a couple of Windows machines. And Homegroup is supposed to
be easy!
  #37  
Old December 31st 17, 07:34 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Michael Logies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default cloud OS?

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 18:06:43 +0000, mechanic
wrote:

If only, there are far too many settings which need to be checked
such as needing TCP/IP6 turned on (even if you aren't using it),
setting up file sharing and using the same credentials for all
connected devices before you can be sure windows10 machines will
even talk to each other never mind Android or Samba servers.


If the file is free to access for everyone, Android does not need the
user credentials, as far as I remember. I seldom use this feature. For
what? Sometimes I use bluetooth for connecting to an AptX-receiver or
miracast for conneting to a TV.

Then
there are problems if you haven't set fixed IP addresses for each
machine.


Usually not. I use the DHCP server of my router. The router has an
option to use always the same IP for the same device, which results in
fixed IPs, but with less hassle on the client side.

Forums are full of tales of woe from users just trying to
network a couple of Windows machines.


Networking has not changed much since XP. I still have 2 XP machines
on my network, working together with Win 7 and Win 10.

And Homegroup is supposed to
be easy!


I never tried it.

Regards

M.
  #38  
Old December 31st 17, 07:55 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Michael Logies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default cloud OS?

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:30:26 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

and
naivety on the part of educators, in thinking
that tech by itself makes kids smarter.


I agree that is does not. But compared to Windows, Chrome OS is
lightweight and fast and does not stand in the way of teaching. If one
does not use a Windows PC for some weeks, it may be impossible to use
for some time after booting because of updates. This will not happen
with Chrome OS. Much less need to explain the usage of Chrome OS and
the Google Apps to kids compared to e. g. Word. Even backups are
automatic...

There are other statistics:
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/03/c...e-vs-linux-usa
Chrome OS Has Double the Marketshare of Regular Linux in USA
Google's coud-centric OS proves more popular than traditional Linux
distros stateside
BY JOEY SNEDDON UNDER NEWS MARCH 8, 2017

And on the professional side of things:
https://simplystatistics.org/2017/08...-a-chromebook/
Data Science on a Chromebook
Jeff Leek 2017/08/29
chromebook
About nine months ago I announced that I was attempting a Chromebook
experiment for the 2nd time. At first I thought it was going to be a
short term experiment just to see if it was possible to function with
only a Chromebook. But in an interesting twist I got used to it and
have been working exclusively on a Chromebook for the last few months
since the experiment started.
(...)

  #39  
Old January 1st 18, 11:24 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
mechanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 754
Default cloud OS?

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 19:34:46 +0100, Michael Logies wrote:

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 18:06:43 +0000, mechanic
wrote:

If only, there are far too many settings which need to be checked
such as needing TCP/IP6 turned on (even if you aren't using it),
setting up file sharing and using the same credentials for all
connected devices before you can be sure windows10 machines will
even talk to each other never mind Android or Samba servers.


If the file is free to access for everyone, Android does not need the
user credentials, as far as I remember.


Android? I turn on my Nexus machine and of course it can connect to
the router wifi - is that your idea of interworking? It's pretty
limited, I can download/upload files using an app but that's not the
same as the picture viewer offering to search the LAN for images to
display. And working with files is working against the Android
system which likes to keep such things hidden. In my daughter's
Apple network, things like that 'just work'.
  #40  
Old January 1st 18, 12:50 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Michael Logies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default cloud OS?

On Mon, 1 Jan 2018 10:24:22 +0000, mechanic
wrote:

but that's not the
same as the picture viewer offering to search the LAN for images to
display. And working with files is working against the Android
system


No. Install Kodi on your Windows PC and on your Android for streaming
pictures and videos from PC to Android.

Or use a file manager like Total Commander for Android (with plugin
for LAN/Windows network, should be installable from inside TC for
Android, or he https://www.ghisler.com/androidplugins/download/

Regards

M.
  #41  
Old January 2nd 18, 11:38 PM posted to comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Pabst Blue Ribbon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default cloud OS?

Roger Blake wrote:
On 2017-12-29, dale wrote:
How about a terminal/thin-client running a cloud distributed java
byte-code OS with availability of byte-code apps including development?
The only thing besides that I would want is hardware input/output like:
CD/DVD, USB stick, memory card, etc. might give a rise to the hardware
consumable market ...

With the right model I think OS or network development is even possible


Sounds awful. However, I reject "the cloud" and prefer to maintain local
control of my resources and data.


The server don't have to be outside of your home. For example, your desktop
computer is server (doing all the heavy calculations), your table is client
(receiving commands for you and displaying the graphics). The only problem
here is the connection speed, obviously.

  #42  
Old January 2nd 18, 11:38 PM posted to comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Pabst Blue Ribbon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default cloud OS?

dale wrote:
On 12/29/17 9:03 PM, Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote:
dale wrote:
After around 25 years of enjoying peer-peer desktop computing with self
administration I look back to client/server models and want something
for most of what I do without my own machine/network admin.

How about a terminal/thin-client running a cloud distributed java
byte-code OS with availability of byte-code apps including development?


Inferno is what you want.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(operating_system)



know of anyone running a safe and reliable server and a thin-client?


Ummm, yeah, whole bunch of people. Did you read the link? This is not a new
idea, it was around since times of Plan 9.


The only thing besides that I would want is hardware input/output like:
CD/DVD, USB stick, memory card, etc. might give a rise to the hardware
consumable market ...

With the right model I think OS or network development is even possible









  #43  
Old January 3rd 18, 12:16 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Michael Logies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 139
Default cloud OS?

On Tue, 02 Jan 2018 22:38:24 GMT, Pabst Blue Ribbon
wrote:

The server don't have to be outside of your home. For example, your desktop
computer is server (doing all the heavy calculations), your table is client
(receiving commands for you and displaying the graphics). The only problem
here is the connection speed, obviously.


Within my WLAN (802.11g, 54 Mbit/s) Google`s "Chrome Remote Desktop"
is fast enough for transfering Video (DVD running on a Windows
machine) to an android tablet in real time. Same is true for newer
versions of Microsoft`s RDP for Windows and Android.
  #44  
Old January 3rd 18, 01:48 PM posted to comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.comp.os.windows-10
chrisv
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 456
Default cloud OS?

Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote:

dale wrote:

know of anyone running a safe and reliable server and a thin-client?


Ummm, yeah, whole bunch of people. Did you read the link? This is not a new
idea, it was around since times of Plan 9.


It used to be that the "clients" were dumb serial terminals.

--
"Linux simply isn't mature enough and rich enough for the average home
user ..." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
  #45  
Old January 4th 18, 12:03 AM posted to comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Pabst Blue Ribbon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default cloud OS?

chrisv wrote:
Pabst Blue Ribbon wrote:

dale wrote:

know of anyone running a safe and reliable server and a thin-client?


Ummm, yeah, whole bunch of people. Did you read the link? This is not a new
idea, it was around since times of Plan 9.


It used to be that the "clients" were dumb serial terminals.


True, if you look at it this way it all can be dated back to the times of
mainframes and dumb terminals. If I understand dale correctly he was
looking for distributed OS where both server and client are running same
operating system. Inferno does exactly that. It's more complicated approach
but allows more flexibility and transparency.
 




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