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  #151  
Old December 7th 17, 08:25 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
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Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:51:39 -0600, philo wrote:

On 12/02/2017 01:54 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 10:12:16 -0600, philo wrote:

I never saw the point of a tablet.


Small and light, so easy to travel with.

But a smart phone is even smaller and lighter, and I now use mine
instead of my tablet.



I tend to use my Android for just about everything.


Android what? Phone? Tablet? Other?


He's got one of these, a (learning) Android robot. It's
pretty kooky watching it drive a car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DgA...ature=youtu.be

Paul
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  #152  
Old December 8th 17, 02:12 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Char Jackson
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On Thu, 07 Dec 2017 15:25:14 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:51:39 -0600, philo wrote:

On 12/02/2017 01:54 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 10:12:16 -0600, philo wrote:

I never saw the point of a tablet.


Small and light, so easy to travel with.

But a smart phone is even smaller and lighter, and I now use mine
instead of my tablet.



I tend to use my Android for just about everything.


Android what? Phone? Tablet? Other?


He's got one of these, a (learning) Android robot. It's
pretty kooky watching it drive a car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DgA...ature=youtu.be


That explains why he uses it for just about everything. :-)

--

Char Jackson
  #153  
Old December 8th 17, 03:14 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
philo
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On 12/07/2017 02:16 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:51:39 -0600, philo wrote:

On 12/02/2017 01:54 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 10:12:16 -0600, philo wrote:

I never saw the point of a tablet.



Small and light, so easy to travel with.

But a smart phone is even smaller and lighter, and I now use mine
instead of my tablet.




I tend to use my Android for just about everything.


Android what? Phone? Tablet? Other?



I have an LG-6 phone


Really like it a lot.

My first one was a very cheap Samsung and the reason I upgraded was for
more storage and a better camera.


Rarely use any of my "real" cameras anymore
  #154  
Old December 8th 17, 03:16 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
philo
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On 12/07/2017 08:12 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2017 15:25:14 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:51:39 -0600, philo wrote:

On 12/02/2017 01:54 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 10:12:16 -0600, philo wrote:

I never saw the point of a tablet.


Small and light, so easy to travel with.

But a smart phone is even smaller and lighter, and I now use mine
instead of my tablet.



I tend to use my Android for just about everything.

Android what? Phone? Tablet? Other?


He's got one of these, a (learning) Android robot. It's
pretty kooky watching it drive a car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DgA...ature=youtu.be


That explains why he uses it for just about everything. :-)




Now that you know my story. here is the info on my wife


https://www.iwanttobepaint.com/
  #155  
Old January 10th 18, 07:20 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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Char Jackson
Fri, 01 Dec 2017
05:17:48 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

[snip]

As for the media types I trust most, it's hard drives, hands down.
Flash drives are a close second and optical media don't even make
the list.


I'm obviously different and very old school.. I don't trust my hard
disks first and foremost, nopers.. I don't fully trust my usb sticks on
their own either. I trust multiple backups on more than one type of
media the most.

File this, I guess, under the heading of We're All Different.



I'm surprised nobody so far has mentioned bitrot when it comes to
optical media. And, it's not restricted to burned discs, either.
Various commercial audio cds have been known to suffer from it. And,
theres' no going back on that. Once it begins to take hold, some data
has already been lost. It's a race to see what/if any you can salvage
from it.

Sorry for my very late reply to this old thread.


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  #156  
Old January 10th 18, 07:20 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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"Mayayana"
news alt.windows7.general, wrote:

"Char Jackson" wrote

| True, but I weigh that against the enormous inconvenience of
| optical media. CD-Rs are completely out of the question for data
| storage, I hope you'll agree, but even single layer DVD's with
| their ~4.5GB storage are a non-starter for me. That doesn't even
| hold a movie

Do you want to store data or movies? 10,000
docs or 1 full length movie? Those are different
uses. I easily get all of my time-sensitive backup
onto a DVD. Things that don't change, like software
installers, video, photos, etc, go on DVDs and a
backup hard disk.


Dual layer DVDs aren't that expensive these days. 8.5 gigs, raw.

You keep talking about what a tremendous hassle
DVDs are, yet you haven't used a CD/DVD for 13
years!


I still use them myself. Mostly single layer, but I also use dual layer
from time to time.


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From the Department of Redundancy Department
  #157  
Old January 10th 18, 07:20 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Sat, 02 Dec 2017 03:05:15 GMT in
alt.windows7.general, wrote:

On the "we're all different" theme:

In message , Char
Jackson writes:
[]
True, but I weigh that against the enormous inconvenience of
optical media. CD-Rs are completely out of the question for data
storage, I hope you'll agree, but even single layer DVD's with
their ~4.5GB storage are a non-starter for me. That doesn't even
hold a movie unless you forego the HD versions, which I'm not
willing to do. Also, I don't have pockets big enough to hold
discs.

Least with optical you can often retrieve a
lot of it


Things must have really changed since I exited the stage. I've
never, not once, heard of a case where you could retrieve part of
a damaged disc. It has always been all or nothing, in my
experience.


It ought to be possible in theory, just as with magnetic discs.


It's possible in practice. Optical doesn't typically lose it all
at once, short of a microwaving or severe creeping bitrot death.
Commercial optical media can also suffer from the death of bitrot.

I have an ancient original metallica cd that succumbed to it.
Essentially, due to manufacturing flaws, air was eventually allowed
to access the area where data is actually stored, between the two
thin pieces of plastic. Once exposed to air, the material breaks down
taking whatever was stored on it along with it.

[snip]

I've never had a flash drive fail on me, so I guess that's
something I can look forward to happening someday. When it
happens, it won't matter because everything on a flash drive also
lives somewhere else. (Famous last words)


I've had them fail - and when they do, it's nearly always been
sudden and total.


More often than not, yes. Even if some data is still present
somewhere on the memory chip itself, you have no viable means of
pulling it.


The main problem with internal (or "always on") drives is not
electronic or magnetic failure (though I guess being always on
increases the chance of those), it's the danger of corruption -
either user mistake, or ransomware or similar (OK, some very
holier-than-thou types would say ransomware and similar are user
error too, but YKWIM).


Excluding SSD types, the mechanical components do fail due to wear
and tear.

(Wow, what do you handle - HD movies for the whole family? The
250G drive on my main machine still has plenty of space, so my
backup 1T one [external and disconnected except at backup time,
but a 3.5" one] has multiple backups on it. We certainly are
different in that respect!)


I'd run out of room in a semi short period of time if I was
restricted to a single 250gig drive. It wouldn't even hold some of my
backups.


--
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  #158  
Old January 10th 18, 07:20 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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Char Jackson
Sat, 02 Dec 2017
05:13:10 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 03:05:15 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

On the "we're all different" theme:

In message , Char
Jackson writes:
[]
True, but I weigh that against the enormous inconvenience of
optical media. CD-Rs are completely out of the question for data
storage, I hope you'll agree, but even single layer DVD's with
their ~4.5GB storage are a non-starter for me. That doesn't even
hold a movie unless you forego the HD versions, which I'm not
willing to do. Also, I don't have pockets big enough to hold
discs.

Least with optical you can often retrieve a
lot of it

Things must have really changed since I exited the stage. I've
never, not once, heard of a case where you could retrieve part of
a damaged disc. It has always been all or nothing, in my
experience.


It ought to be possible in theory, just as with magnetic discs.


AFAIK, if the TOC is damaged or corrupt, the disc is toast.


Nope. That's actually a copy protection 'trick' once deployed on
commercial audio cds for a period of time. You can still get the data
off the disc. I've ripped more than one copy protected audio cd that
intentionally corrupted the toc so a computer drive would have
problems with it, but a normal audio only cd player wouldn't.

Yes, there's a bit of a difference between how your computers optical
drives treat inserted media vs that of your old audio cd player. And
various pressing plants at the request/demand of some record labels
took full advantage of it. The disc would play just fine in your
normal cd player, but, would give your computer fits and in some
cases, your car stereo as well. And with some macs, because they
didn't have a physical eject button (or the pinhole manual override)
would get 'stuck' in the drive.

I don't personally consider internal drives to be at significant
risk. I'm going to need some really bad experiences before I
change my mind. I think external drives are at a much higher risk.
I know most folks here won't agree with that, but that's what my
experience has shown me.


I recently had one of my linux machines go down on me, the 500gb wd
drive developed bad sectors on the super block of all places. That
machine is back online now, but it was a real ****er recovering data
from the drive. Luckily, there wasn't anything on it that I didn't
have stored in multiple other locations, but I was surprised that it
failed in the manner in which it did and what a bitch it was to get
anything from it as a result. Even the backup superblock wasn't any
help.

Oh, and I got no advanced warning of any kind that there was a
problem with the drive. It was fine one day, being replaced the next.
I found out the computer had a problem when I tried to access it as I
normally do from another one, no response. Which was unusual as my
machines tend to be very stable critters. So I went to the box itself
and wiggled the mouse, no response but I noticed the HD light was
solid. Waited a few minutes, couldn't get a response via keyboard or
mouse so opted for reset button. That's when I got an education in
how linux does if the boot region of the hard disk is physically
damaged. Booting off of usb stick got me back to a console prompt so
I could do some investigating and that's when I discovered I had a
few bad blocks (4 total on the entire drive... sigh) and the
superblock was affected in a most bad way. As in, destroyed. Which is
very very bad for Linux.

All that being said, that's the first HD failure I've experienced in
atleast five years. The few I suffered previously I knew in advance
by the sounds of the drive, smart failure warnings, or, checking on
the drives internal memory of bad/remapped sectors that the drive was
going south, but, I had time to get my stuff before it did. In this
particular case, no warning.

--
To prevent yourself from being a victim of cyber
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was gonna keep it, rather than return it, but I thought: well, if I
lost a hundred and fifty dollars, how would I feel? And I realized I
would want to be taught a lesson."
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  #159  
Old January 10th 18, 07:20 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)"
news alt.windows7.general, wrote:

[snip]

I don't personally consider internal drives to be at significant
risk.


You've obviously never had an aggressive virus. (Nor have I, but I
do read about them!)


In the sense of an aggressive virus, what difference does external
that's connected and online vs internal make? If the virus is well
written, it'll wait until you connect writable external media again
anyhow.

Ransomware on the other hand is a seperate issue.

I don't have experience of external ones in cases. All my use of
external drives have been using bare drives, either with a "cable"
(though obviously with some electronics in it) or, more recently,
a dock. The only ones I've had trouble with were ones that were
giving trouble before removal from what they came out of.


I've had little bad experience so far with external drives, but, I
don't run them 24/7 either. I use them for getting data or putting
data on them and then they're powered off and placed back into
storage. As, well, if something were to happen from a
malware/security break standpoint and the drive was still online to
the machine that suffered the attack, it's data is up for grabs (or
worse) too. Being an external drive in the physical sense doesn't
matter in that case.


--
To prevent yourself from being a victim of cyber
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  #160  
Old January 10th 18, 07:20 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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"Mayayana"
news alt.windows7.general, wrote:

And you pay what for your 64 GB stick?.... $40? $50?
For large-scale storage disks are not the solution. But
I could write 16 DVDs for about $5. Not a bad backup
option.


That seems a bit expensive. I bought two sandisk cruzer 32gb sticks at
Walmart less than two weeks ago. They were priced for $6 on the shelve
so I originally only picked up one. But when it was rungup, it came up
with a $3 price tag. So I happily bought two. I would have purchased
more, but, they only had two left.. so...

I've seen Gorilla drives for less than $30 for a 64gig one and I'd
happily pay it. I have two 16gb versions of the same and I've been very
pleased with them. They have fast access times and are well built and
quite sturdy. Pricing from a local store, not online. Online is likely
even cheaper. 24.95 from amazon, if you don't opt for the usb 3
version.





--
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  #161  
Old January 11th 18, 11:52 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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"Mayayana"
news alt.windows7.general, wrote:

"Nil" wrote

| I'm surprised that so many people say that. I've
| *never* tried an old CD/DVD that I couldn't read. Last
| week I was backing up email to a database, going
| back 10 years. All the disks were fine.
|
| Me, too. I have hundreds of CDRs and DVDRs and I could probably
| count on one hand the number of them that have gone bad... and
| usually that's because of physical damaged caused by me. I'm sure
| I've had proportionally more hard disks go bad.

This got me to thinking. I decided to try my
oldest USB stick. Macally 256 MB. I'm not sure
how old it is. Probably 10 years. Maybe more.
It doesn't show up at all. The system doesn't
see it. All these years it's just been sitting on
a shelf over my desk, with the cap on.
That's my hesitancy about USB sticks and
hard disks. Magnetic storage. I don't really
understand how it works, but it seems that
it has to be less durable than grooves in plastic.
And maybe it's susceptible to magnetic fields?
I don't know.


The USB stick, depending on the actual ram chip is also subject to
another form of bitrot. And, due to the way in which magnetic media
works, it can lose data over time, without you actually having to
take an active role in it. The magnetism effect isn't forever and
does wear off over time, especially if the drive isn't used. As a
result, whatever data was stored in various spots that have already
lost their signal, is gone.

You can see this best with floppy disks though. Over time, years in
some cases depending on manufacturer, your data would slowly
disappear. As the mangetically stored data wasn't exactly stored in a
permanent way.


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  #162  
Old January 11th 18, 11:52 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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Char Jackson
Fri, 01 Dec 2017
16:18:56 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:37:37 -0500, Wolf K
wrote:

On 2017-12-01 09:29, Mayayana wrote:
That's my hesitancy about USB sticks and
hard disks. Magnetic storage. I don't really
understand how it works, but it seems that
it has to be less durable than grooves in plastic.
And maybe it's susceptible to magnetic fields?
I don't know.



Cosmic rays?

The Earth's magnetic field is strong enough to degrade magnetic
storage over time. That's one reason VHS/Beta tapes become
unusable.


Mayayana mentioned grooves in plastic within the context of
backing up data to DVD. Obviously, there are no grooves... ;-)


No, but, there are small pits when the laser burns the disc. [g]

And, if air is ever allowed access to the material where your data is
actually stored, sandwiched between those two layers of plastic that
make the cd/dvd, bitrot will take hold and eat your data over time.


--
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================================================== =
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  #163  
Old January 11th 18, 11:52 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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Posts: 834
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"Mayayana"
news alt.windows7.general, wrote:

"Char Jackson" wrote

| Mayayana mentioned grooves in plastic within the context of
| backing up data to DVD. Obviously, there are no grooves... ;-)
|

My understanding is that the writer cuts grooves
at various depths underneath the surface as a way
to record data. Is that wrong? In any case, it cuts
some kind of marks in plastic. It's not just magnetic
storage.


It's not cutting grooves. It's pitting. And it's not cutting the
plastic. It's making these marks on the media sandwiched between the
two layers of plastic; one on the top, the other on the bottom.


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  #164  
Old January 11th 18, 11:52 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Diesel
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Paul news Dec 2017 17:10:28 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

For example, the Verbatims I used to get here were "Ritek".
There is "Ritek" and "Taiyo Yuden", as two examples of
decent actual manufacturers.


Ritek is a great manufacturer. I've been very pleased with actual
ritek discs. So much so, I converted a former employer to purchase
actual ritek labeled spindles for sale and use in the shop. I'm also a
fan of verbatim, and I've been what you might call loyal to them since
before my teenage years. There floppies tended to keep my data better
than memorex, 3m, etc.

I agree that imgburn is a fantastic little program.



--
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  #165  
Old January 12th 18, 05:15 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 7,094
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Mayayana wrote:
"Char Jackson" wrote

| Mayayana mentioned grooves in plastic within the context of backing up
| data to DVD. Obviously, there are no grooves... ;-)
|

My understanding is that the writer cuts grooves
at various depths underneath the surface as a way
to record data. Is that wrong? In any case, it cuts
some kind of marks in plastic. It's not just magnetic
storage.


There is one web site, a really old one, with an
authoritative description of all of the technical details
on optical media formats.

You shouldn't get your ideas from us without
reading that first.

The disc has a spiral pattern on it. It has two possible
encodings. The optical head uses the spiral pattern with
encoding, for "servo", to move the arm in such a way that
the player can track a spiral path. Of the two encodings,
one is technically superior. Although both DVD formats
are still for sale at the store, and few people seem
to know the difference. (Even I don't remember which
is the "good one" :-) I have to look it up.)

https://www.pctechguide.com/dvd/dvd-rw

(picture of wobble groove - schematic, not actual)

On DVDRAM discs, the pattern is concentric circles. And
a DVDRAM works like a hard drive in a sense.

Originally, optical devices needed long lead-in and
lead-out sequences when writing. But a variety of
modern things with names like "burn-proof" make it possible
to write, even when the HDD source is not delivering data
in time for the write head. That means there is some
way to splice the write, without ruining it. Many years
ago, we used to make "coasters", before there was
Burn-proof, because any little data burp (failure to
deliver data in time) would cause the disc to get
a bad spot. That's fixed now.

Optical media uses pits. Although there's going to be
a difference between pressed and burned media. It's possible
these are pressed, but I don't know that for sure.

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/wp-co...en-Krasnow.jpg

And you can find FAQs.

http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html#S2-38

recorded CD

The organic dye or phase-change film changes state
in a way that affects how light is reflected

pressed CD

The depth of the pit is chosen to cause a 1/2 phase difference
in the reflected light. If the pit were shallower or deeper,
the effect would be lost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobble_frequency

https://www.myce.com/article/Why-DVD...to-DVD-RW-203/

Pre-pits versus ADIP

Conclusion

During my study of rewritable DVD formats it seemed very clear to
me that DVD-R(W) standard was not as well designed as DVD+R(W)

There's info out there.

Paul
 




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